Covid-19 vaccine

[tabzer]

Right, so let's try it your way....

Your personal experience is always right. Whatever you feel is valid. Facts are whatever you decide they are. If you don't want vaccines because that fits with you biases and preconceptions, or what you read on Twitter, you are absolutely right to do so.

Not "my" way, but generally speaking: yes. I support people making their own choices.

Any scientific or medical authority who thinks they know better about science or medicine is some sort of arrogant elitist, probably a globalist, fascist, or communist, and definitely not to be trusted over your own gut.

There's arrogance in the assumption of "knowing better than other people" and it is not rooted in science. My personal biome is a lifetime work that can be undone by excessive sterilization techniques and faux viral imprints. Even if you get vaccinated, it's still your gut that saves you. Sacrificing your gut is not advisable, as it would complicate the vaccine, even if only via placebo.

Your perspective is the only one that matters in the entire cosmos.

There is a hierarchy of sorts. Journos, Politicians, and random forum participants are only of topical interest matter.

Your gut knows best and always has.

Gut microbiota is more important than a seasonal vaccine that has obsoletion built into it.

Don't trust the science; those people are part of The Establishment and out to get you, probably as a form of population control, as they pad their own pockets with sweet government handouts. Remember, forget the science and always trust your gut!

Your appeals to authority are not "the science", lol.

 

[titan_tim]

I think it's important to note that "less of a chance to spread the virus" is not equivalent to "less of a chance to contract the virus".

The two can go hand-in-hand in most situations. If I was vaccinated and contracted it later on and showed zero symptoms, the chances of others contracting it around me are miniscule. Whereas if I wasn't, and therefore had much worse symptoms, there's a higher chance someone around me could catch it as well.

Earlier I used a leaking bathroom tap analogy where the leak was slowed from 10L/min to 5L/min and noted this will still flood the bathroom, it will just take longer. Additionally the leak returns to 10L/min after 6-12 months ("waning immunity").

Not the best example. First there was a 10L/min leak that most people realized was a problem, and most people therefore worked to rectify the leak as much as possible. A smaller group denied there even was a leak for months. The first group created an effective way to stop the leak to about 5L/min, which allowed the water pump (The hospitals) to drain as much water that was coming in. The other group which originally denied the leak was happening in the first place pivoted to trying to stuff the leak with crayons, which they heard was effective on the internet. Now, the water pump is effectively pumping out the water without any issue, but we all have wet feet now. The 2nd group of people are beating their chests saying they were smart for not following the original effective method, but in reality, they could have potentially helped stop it to 1L/min or less.

Imagine the year is 2018 and there is no Covid, and therefore no risk of Covid. In this scenario surely you could see how it would be morally disastrous to have mandates. So the only difference between moral disaster and moral justification is the presence of the threat of Covid. So if I can show that I'm not a Covid threat, then the mandates are morally disastrous.

That's an odd point to make. If there's no threat, there's no need for a mandate. That's not what we had in this situation. Let's change it to the other logical extreme. Let's say there was a virus that didn't have any symptoms that had a 100% death rate after a month. Do you think there should have been a lockdown for a month? Would you feel your freedom was being infringed upon? Or would you think of it as the greater good to be rid of a virus which was that deadly?

 

[NoobletCheese]

The vaccines are safe and effective.

However the standard of efficacy was lowered to include vaccines which are non-sterilising and low durability (normal vaccines are sterilising and high durability).

So if the standard of efficacy was lowered, then perhaps the standard of safety was lowered too. After all it's an emergency situation, so it makes sense the standards would be lowered to try and save as many lives as possible.

But saving as many lives as possible is evil, because Utilitarianism is evil. And you should believe it's evil too, otherwise I can hurt you to help others. I can require you donate blood in an emergency. I can make organ donor registration opt-out instead of opt-in. Army conscription is evil too. This is how vaxxers see me, as some kind of draft dodger who isn't a team player and won't "do their part" in the war against Covid. It's the same flavour of zealotry.

Post automatically merged: Sep 19, 2023

That's not what we had in this situation.

So you think I'm Covid threat even though I've tested negative for the virus, or tested positive for natural immunity antibodies (which CDC acknowledges is better than vaccination), and you have 4 doses of vaccine protecting yourself against me? Still a threat am I?

 

[titan_tim]

However the standard of efficacy was lowered to include vaccines which are non-sterilising and low durability (normal vaccines are sterilising and high durability).

I won't even bother trying to comment on this, as I'm most definitely not qualified. If you aren't an immunologist or a vaccine specialist, then I'd suggest you don't attempt to try to be as well, at the threat of falling into the ever-deepening hole of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

So if the standard of efficacy was lowered, then perhaps the standard of safety was lowered too. After all it's an emergency situation, so it makes sense the standards would be lowered to try and save as many lives as possible.

That "perhaps" is doing some unreasonable lifting in this unsubstantiated claim.

But saving as many lives as possible is evil, because Utilitarianism is evil. And you should believe it's evil too, otherwise I can hurt you to help others. I can require you donate blood in an emergency. I can make organ donor registration opt-out instead of opt-in. Army conscription is evil too. This is how vaxxers see me, as some kind of draft dodger who isn't a team player and won't "do their part" in the war against Covid. It's the same flavour of zealotry.

So it sounds like you're more for rights-based ethics, which has it's place as well. But only to a point. Rights-based ethics falls through when extreme situations are presented, and we'd have to rely on utilitarianism. Which is why I brought up the previous hypothetical about the 100% virus.

So you think I'm Covid threat even though I've tested negative for the virus, or tested positive for natural immunity antibodies (which CDC acknowledges is better than vaccination), and you have 4 doses of vaccine protecting yourself against me? Still a threat am I?

That's quite the strawman. When did I say you were a threat at this moment? You were more of a threat to yourself and others around you near the start of the pandemic, but that's about it. I even previously stated in this chain:

"At this point, I doubt there's been a single person on earth that hasn't contracted that damn thing at least once, and we all should have some form of immunity, so the vaccine isn't really as necessary anymore in my opinion. If the virus mutates again to a version that our body isn't ready for, this whole fiasco will start fresh again. I'm just wondering what death rate it would take to get people to stop being selfish. Apparently a 1% death rate near the start of the pandemic wasn't enough to get people to act reasonably. Would 5% do it? 10%? Hell, I'm sure if it was a 100% death rate, you'd still get nutter's saying it wasn't real on their deathbeds."

Even then, I brought up the 100% death virus conundrum, which the person avoided that time, and you avoided this time.

 

[bazamuffin]

A 1 person test group . I've been called worse

I can't be the only one who wishes a solid, thumping good plague would wipe out 90% of humanity.

I hate humans more every day.

Go, COVID!

You are not alone in this train of thought

 

[CharlesDeGaulle]

Looking at this poll, I first have been shocked of the disparity (66/33%).
But overall, skeptics are far more represented here than in real life (5% reluctance in my direct workgroup).

There's arrogance in the assumption of "knowing better than other people" and it is not rooted in science.

There is an equal amount of ignorance in scientific and non scientific communities.

When talking about muon's influence on earth thermodynamics to the climate specialists I work with, first they ask me what a muon is, and then they tell me it has no impact at all. Just keep talking about century old cloud chambers technologies and CERN current experiments on the subject and BAM, blank stare.

We are all ignorants to some degree.
Scientists are not spared considering they have been over-specialized during their phD.
And if you add some funding bias to it, grab some popcorn and enjoy the show.

Post automatically merged: Sep 19, 2023

I can't be the only one who wishes a solid, thumping good plague would wipe out 90% of humanity.

I hate humans more every day.

Go, COVID!

OK, you first then.

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

OK, you first then.

Fine by me. I've made it clear on multiple occasions that I don't CARE if I died tomorrow from COVID. I wasn't exempting myself from the hoped-for decimation.

I am an atheist, and I still prayed for death when I had COVID in 2021. To any god or demon who might be listening. They let me down.

 

[wiiu20603]

Going by peer reviewed data, it seems reasonable to suppose that people who got seriously ill after vaccination would likely have suffered even more from COVID-19 without it.

Source?
It's impossible to know this.
Since we can't determine if somebody will have a bad reaction to the vaccine before taking the vaccine, it's not possible to create a 'Will have a bad reaction the the vaccine. but is unvaccinated" group. That's what you would need to get any data.
You would have a group of people who got the vaccine, then had a bad reaction. Then, you give them covid.
The other group would be the 'Will have a bad reaction to the vaccine, but is unvaccinated", then you give them covid.
That's the only way to come to the conclusion you 'suppose' in your post.

That's a big problem I have with all the commoners trying to be 'good at science' during the pandemic. People want covid to be scary and they want the vaccine to be a silver bullet, so they interpret all data to support that conclusion. (I'm not making any claims here about the severity of covid or the benefit of the vaccine)

 

[Vetusomaru]

I never took the Covid test, I never took the Covid jab, I never got Covid positive during "pandemic" (while many other jabbed people kept getting the Covid even after being triple vaxxed), I never got sick during "pandemic" (while many other jabbed people even got heavily sick or "suddenly" died in young age). Feels good man.

 

[Bunjolio]

I never took the Covid test, I never took the Covid jab, I never got Covid positive during "pandemic" (while many other jabbed people kept getting the Covid even after being triple vaxxed), I never got sick during "pandemic" (while many other jabbed people even got heavily sick or "suddenly" died in young age). Feels good man.

i have the vaccine, i dont remember when but when i had covid im pretty sure i had gotten it from my dad, which i dont know if he was vaccinated yet at the time, but still, i got it since i live with him (split time between mom and dad)

 

[tabzer]

People really took Fauci's,"I am the science" comment to heart.

 

[Youkai]

If your entire worldview is individualistic and narcissistic, nobody is gonna give a shit about your opinions on about collectivist action and the steps necessary to ensure public health and safety. It's not a concept as nebulous as the "greater good," the results have always spoke for themselves when it comes to vaccination.

Actually not always ... at least not in the first try ....
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/

But yes in theory Vaccinations are very good and even many of the people here who are against the Covid Vaccination (like me) admit that.
I for one can't understand people who don't take any vaccination at all .... just got all the "normal" stuff redone last week when my doc said it should be done every 10 years (mine were 12 years old)
Anyways there were things like the one from the link about the polio vaccination that did went very wrong so its actually very stupid to call others stupid for beeing carefull especially when they don't feel threatened by something like corona.

(in my age group the statistics say that last time I checked only like 200 people in my country died because/with corona so chances for me a like winning a lottery while yes the vaccination did took much less peoples life but it did for no good reason and noone knew if there might have been some other bad side effects and even though chances are slim after X years its still possible to find long time side effects which might be something we wouldn't want only for a very slim protection of a very minor threat)

Can't understand people aged 60+ who wouldn't take the vaccination though as they are endangered so much more ....

 

[CharlesDeGaulle]

Fine by me. I've made it clear on multiple occasions that I don't CARE if I died tomorrow from COVID. I wasn't exempting myself from the hoped-for decimation.

I am an atheist, and I still prayed for death when I had COVID in 2021. To any god or demon who might be listening. They let me down.

Come on, it was a rhetoric answer, do not take it personally.
You look seriously blackpilled...

I can't blame you for that, everything seems rigged so our demograpĥic HAS to feel that way: misanthropic.
As a "theist" (is that the right term ? :] ), I would gladly grab a beer with you.

Back to the topic, specialists know it, COVID had EXACTLY the same consequences as the tchernobyl accident: when you study raw data, you can see that people didn't suffer from the fallout, but from the economic coercion which followed.

 

[RedColoredStars]

Please go on.

With what exactly? A person might be able to understand what the fuck you're asking if you were capable of a complete thought to begin with. And then the "creep" emoji? You make as much sense as usual, which amounts to zero. But please, go on. Elaborate on wtf you're even talking about.

 

[tabzer]

With what exactly? A person might be able to understand what the fuck you're asking if you were capable of a complete thought to begin with. And then the "creep" emoji? You make as much sense as usual, which amounts to zero. But please, go on. Elaborate on wtf you're even talking about.

I'm asking you to elaborate on this:

"Accounting for or being held accountable for everyone else's experience is not the same thing as taking everyone else's experience into account."

Practically, there is no difference. The nuance starts to differ between a statistics pov vs a personable pov, and I'm not the one trying to use statistics to pressure people.

It just looks to me that you didn't think about what you were saying. It sounded familiar enough for you to think it was a good response, but your position ends up being contradicted by it.

Are you playing coy or just too near-sighted?

 

[_47iscool]

 

[WalterSlovotsky]

My life for you.

Bumpty bump-de-bump.

 

[AsPika2219]

Get ready for upcoming...

DISEASE X

... the next pandemic after covid

 

[mrdude]

Get ready for upcoming...

DISEASE X

... the next pandemic after covid

Yep, big pharma need to make their money and the government want to have total control over your life. Basically everyone just needs to tell them to piss off and take back control of their own lives, then arrest these fuckers that are messing about with gain of function research and put them in prison forever or hang them from the end of a rope.

 

[wiiu20603]

Yep, big pharma need to make their money and the government want to have total control over your life. Basically everyone just needs to tell them to piss off and take back control of their own lives, then arrest these fuckers that are messing about with gain of function research and put them in prison forever or hang them from the end of a rope.

IDK. Between the unemployment benefits, the free money, and the free time, I could go for another pandemic right now.

During the pandemic, I lived like rich people lived. Money just kept appearing in my bank account and I had all the time in the world to pursue hobbies and be with my family. I went back to in person work in August 2020, but the 6 months before that were excellent.

Of course, I had followed covid news since before it was in the US. The <1% death rate and the majority of those deaths being in the 65+ age group was well known in Feb 2020. I wasn't worried about the virus at all, unlike most people under lockdown.