Far Right Presidential Candidate Wins in Argentina

[tabzer]

Honestly being talked down by someone who had a parliament screening in cinemas because of how much of a circus it was seems funny.

Can you explain this?

As far as I can see, neither of you have an idea of what will determine Milei's position a success. It seems like, @Foxi4, will abandon the issue when it is no longer topical, always insisting he's right about everything, and you will perpetually be disappointed with the outcome. I am saying that if you can agree on a measure that determines a success/failure, then it would be a progressive goal to approach in your discourse. Right now it's just empty slinging.

 

[sarkwalvein]

Because I live here and I know what kind of discourse he has. I also know how easy it is to fall for what the media says. The dude has a heavy right platform with an alt right rigid voting base (15% or so I'd say). He's best friends with Bolsonaro and his even more right-leaning son. His vicepresident I already gave context in a previous comment. He's now allied with Macri who's a neo-liberal (right leaning). He was visited and congratulated by all the heavy right leaning movements in the West, starting with Trump and followed by Kast in Chile, Bolsonaro in Brasil, Bukele in El Salvador, Vox in Spain.
Anyone acting as if he isn't far right is being naive or doing it on purpose.

But I think that is exactly what the media wants you to fall for. If you check his proposals (not the theatrics) he is not authoritarian or far right. He is from the right without a doubt, but not an authoritarian.

In the other hand that of the people that congratulated him from your list lean far right.

PS: Macri is not far right at all either.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

If right and left are defined primarily by economic philosophy, Milei is far right. Authoritarianism can be categorized separately, though most rightwing populists rule as authoritarians, removing the rights of marginalized groups, regress democratic norms and laws, etc....

Correct, but indeed there is this "European" habit of calling "far right" a racist/authoritarianist/ultranationalist government that leans to the right. The same concept applies to far left... what makes me think that European believe "far" means racist/authoritarian/ultranationalist or something.

This confuses the speech, because if you want to say that someone leans far to the right (in the meaning of economic policies: free market / minimal state..) people get the wrong idea you mean a racist authoritarian; and the same happens when you talk about someone that leans far to the left (in economic policies). It is 1984 levels of language redefinition.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

Anyone acting as if he isn't far right is being naive or doing it on purpose.

precisely.

 

[sarkwalvein]

Anyone acting as if he isn't far right is being naive or doing it on purpose.

Of course when you say what you think you do it purposely. Their policies have nothing racist/authoritarian about them. Calling it far right is a what certain group in media does to follow an agenda. Otherwise you could point where in their policies there is authoritarianism or ultranationalism.

PS: just throwing names into a given person without giving ground to the allegations is nothing but ad hominem, and getting in a tantrum pretending you're above somebody else to avoid explaining something is just a childish way to stick to name calling, it doesn't help a point.

 

[tabzer]

precisely.

Are you under the impression that your agreement provides some extra credibility? Nobody wants to be on the same bandwagon you try to make. If you support a particular narrative, it's better you do not speak unless you can provide real support.

 

[jomaper]

Of course when you say what you think you do it purposely. Their policies have nothing racist/authoritarian about them. Calling it far right is a what certain group in media does to follow an agenda. Otherwise you could point where in their policies there is authoritarianism or ultranationalism.

PS: just throwing names into a given person without giving ground to the allegations is nothing but ad hominem, and getting in a tantrum pretending you're above somebody else to avoid explaining something is just a childish way to stick to name calling, it doesn't help a point.

What's racism got to do with anything here? Do you want me to point you to Espert (one of Milei's best friends) saying Bolivians will run or get shot if they go to the streets to protest? Would you even understand what that means here?

I can't believe I'm getting gbatempsplained by people who only read what they want to read. You don't know a single thing about what's going on inside these parties. Or, of course, you're actually being naive on purpose.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

Of course when you say what you think you do it purposely. Their policies have nothing racist/authoritarian about them. Calling it far right is a what certain group in media does to follow an agenda. Otherwise you could point where in their policies there is authoritarianism or ultranationalism.

PS: just throwing names into a given person without giving ground to the allegations is nothing but ad hominem, and getting in a tantrum pretending you're above somebody else to avoid explaining something is just a childish way to stick to name calling, it doesn't help a point.

I literally pointed what gives ground to my claim that he's a far right asshole, not some kind of centered/third position like I guess you think he is. Including being friends with other fsr right assholes and openly saying the left is his enemy and socialism some kind of cancer.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

But I think that is exactly what the media wants you to fall for. If you check his proposals (not the theatrics) he is not authoritarian or far right. He is from the right without a doubt, but not an authoritarian.

In the other hand that of the people that congratulated him from your list lean far right.

PS: Macri is not far right at all either.

Post automatically merged: Dec 15, 2023

Correct, but indeed there is this "European" habit of calling "far right" a racist/authoritarianist/ultranationalist government that leans to the right. The same concept applies to far left... what makes me think that European believe "far" means racist/authoritarian/ultranationalist or something.

This confuses the speech, because if you want to say that someone leans far to the right (in the meaning of economic policies: free market / minimal state..) people get the wrong idea you mean a racist authoritarian; and the same happens when you talk about someone that leans far to the left (in economic policies). It is 1984 levels of language redefinition.

I didn't claim Macri is far right. I said he's right leaning. The right with 'good attitude' who mostly say nice things. That is of course until they get into power and literally call the young votes to defend "the republic" by going against the "orcs" who will manifest and protest.

 

[tabzer]

If you are going for the guilt by association angle, there is no end to that. I'm personally of the persuasion of "guilt by being a politician". Until everyone has the ability to be an equal voice in the dialogue, I will not be satisfied.

 

[jomaper]

If you are going for the guilt by association angle, there is no end to that. I'm personally of the persuasion of "guilt by being a politician". Until everyone has the ability to be an equal voice in the dialogue, I will not be satisfied.

Right, if all of my friends are Nazis and none of them are Jews I'm not a nazi. Gotcha.
I'm done with this thread, good luck with your intelectual conversation about a country none of you live in.

 

[RetroGen]

What's racism got to do with anything here? Do you want me to point you to Espert (one of Milei's best friends) saying Bolivians will run or get shot if they go to the streets to protest? Would you even understand what that means here?

I can't believe I'm getting gbatempsplained by people who only read what they want to read. You don't know a single thing about what's going on inside these parties. Or, of course, you're actually being naive on purpose.

Not sure why right libertarians don't see Milei as far right... perhaps because they don't see themselves as far right? Sounds a bit like the No True Scotsman fallacy. Also, I think right libertarians are salivating at the opportunity for their economic fantasy to become a reality, and overlooking all of the negative baggage and history.

 

[tabzer]

Right, if all of my friends are Nazis and none of them are Jews I'm not a nazi. Gotcha.
I'm done with this thread, good luck with your intelectual conversation about a country none of you live in.

Your point of view is valuable, despite the adversity you may face on the forums. It is why I suggested that a wager be made, in no unclear terms. Even if someone is wrong, it still keeps the conflict amicable.

I am not sure what you mean about supporting nazis. Policies a government has for increasing the prosperity of a country seem far away from the racism you are implying. If you are suggesting that because he doesn't support Isreal, he is an enemy of "the free world", this could be a fun conversation for me.

 

[sarkwalvein]

What's racism got to do with anything here?

How do you define that what you call far right?

Do you want me to point you to Espert (one of Milei's best friends) saying Bolivians will run or get shot if they go to the streets to protest?

It would be nice to know the context of this, if this really happened. Of course I can't agree with this statement. Everybody should be treated equally and according to the law.

Also didn't you get the memo, Espert and Milei parted ways a long time ago, so what the hell does he have to do with this.

I can't believe I'm getting gbatempsplained by people who only read what they want to read. You don't know a single thing about what's going on inside these parties. Or, of course, you're actually being naive on purpose.

gbatempsplained? What the hell is that? Another ad hominem to disqualify the discourse if others? And what makes you think you know better? Are you some kind of spy working in the SIDE that had some undisclosed internal information?

I literally pointed what gives ground to my claim that he's a far right asshole, not some kind of centered/third position like I guess you think he is. Including being friends with other fsr right assholes and openly saying the left is his enemy and socialism some kind of cancer.

No, you did not, those are not valid grounds to claim HE is far right. What does saying that "the left is his enemy and socialism some kind of cancer" has to do with the far right at all? Do you imply that most of the American Democrat party is far right? The "far right" concept is about racism/authoritarianism (fascism)/ultranationalism, it has nothing to do with the rejection of left leaning economic policies.

I didn't claim Macri is far right. I said he's right leaning. The right with 'good attitude' who mostly say nice things. That is of course until they get into power and literally call the young votes to defend "the republic" by going against the "orcs" who will manifest and protest.

And Macri is not far right, but either incompetent or a liar. And regarding protests, protesting is a right, but it needs to be done following the law. You don't become unaccountable because you're protesting. You cannot go blocking traffic randomly or looting stores.

Note/disclaimer: I am not convinced that Milei would be a good president for Argentina, but I don't consider him far right, I consider him an incompetent populist/demagogue (like most previous presidents) that will not be able to bring Argentina's economy back into form... Time will say.

PS: also if you want a racist that has Freudian slips now and then I would point you to the kirchnerist expresident Alberto Fernandez that publicly stated: "los mexicanos salieron de los indios, los brasileños salieron de la selva pero nosotros los argentinos llegamos de los barcos, y eran barcos que venían de Europa, y así construimos nuestra sociedad" (sic.); in english "The Mexicans came from the Indians, the Brazilians came from the jungle but we Argentines came from the ships, and they were ships that came from Europe, and that is how we built our society."

 

[jomaper]

If you are suggesting that because he doesn't support Isreal, he is an enemy of "the free world", this could be a fun conversation for me.

On the contrary he's cosplaying as a Jew, he's a zionist pig and will bring war to us if he keeps meddling in other countries issues. We already have a bad history with that.

My point about the Nazis was pretty clearly in response to your idea of not judging someone by one's company. Which is silly.

Also didn't you get the memo, Espert and Milei parted ways a long time ago, so what the hell does he have to do with this.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. https://www.infobae.com/politica/20...-aliado-legislativo-clave-de-los-libertarios/
Goodbye.

 

[tabzer]

On the contrary he's cosplaying as a Jew, he's a zionist pig and will bring war to us if he keeps meddling in other countries issues. We already have a bad history with that.

My point about the Nazis was pretty clearly in response to your idea of not judging someone by one's company. Which is silly.



Again, you don't know what you're talking about. https://www.infobae.com/politica/20...-aliado-legislativo-clave-de-los-libertarios/
Goodbye.

All politicians must share company with each other, which is one reason why I reject them all (albeit, not the most important). We might have a lot in common.

 

[sarkwalvein]

On the contrary he's cosplaying as a Jew, he's a zionist pig and will bring war to us if he keeps meddling in other countries issues. We already have a bad history with that.

My point about the Nazis was pretty clearly in response to your idea of not judging someone by one's company. Which is silly.



Again, you don't know what you're talking about. https://www.infobae.com/politica/20...-aliado-legislativo-clave-de-los-libertarios/
Goodbye.

Wait... you tell me that having to search for alliances in the house of representatives when you control only a small percentage of the seats is a surprise to you? Or that allying with somebody to pass laws in topics (economic policy) you both agree on makes you agree with the other person in all other topics on life? What? Are you joking or pulling my leg?

And in any case, where, when and in which context was the phrase you attribute to Luis Espert said?

 

[KingVamp]

I've seen the Nordic model work. I haven't seen the same for libertarianism.

 

[Minox]

I've seen the Nordic model work. I haven't seen the same for libertarianism.

How does the "Nordic model" fit into this? Just curious since it doesn't strike me as an obvious comparison.

 

[Xzi]

If you check his proposals (not the theatrics) he is not authoritarian or far right. He is from the right without a doubt, but not an authoritarian.

Milei just criminalized all protest and public demonstrations. Far-right economic policy (slavery) goes hand in hand with the erosion of human rights, inevitably tying back into authoritarianism.

 

[sarkwalvein]

Milei just criminalized all protest and public demonstrations. Far-right economic policy (slavery) goes hand in hand with the erosion of human rights, inevitably tying back into authoritarianism.

I don't know where you read this twisting of reality.
Milei has not criminalized protests or public demonstrations. The current government is stating that demonstrations have to be done in a lawful manner, inside what is stated by the law. No road blocking, no looting.
In Argentina there has been for years situations of longstanding street blockades and looting during demonstrations, demonstrations usually organized and funded by unions associated with given political parties. This has happened since I can remember, and I can remember quite well the last 25 years.

Most Argentines are fed up with this shit, we just wanted to be able to live and work in peace, to transit in peace, reach our homes, reach our workplaces. It is not about criminalizing demonstrations, it is about punishing criminal activity during demonstrations. I was already mentioning this in post #91.

 

[Xzi]

Milei has not criminalized protests or public demonstrations. The current government is stating that demonstrations have to be done in a lawful manner, inside what is stated by the law. No road blocking, no looting.

I imagine there were already separate laws against looting/mugging, no? If a protest is easily ignored, there's no point in staging it in the first place. I very much doubt it's a coincidence that this change is being made now, when the currency has been devalued by 50% and food prices are skyrocketing. It's not a good look if he's trying to convince the rest of the world he isn't far right, but I doubt he cares about his image now that he's in power.

 

[jomaper]

I imagine there were already separate laws against looting/mugging, no? If a protest is easily ignored, there's no point in staging it in the first place. I very much doubt it's a coincidence that this change is being made now, when the currency has been devalued by 50% and food prices are skyrocketing. It's not a good look if he's trying to convince the rest of the world he isn't far right, but I doubt he cares about his image now that he's in power.

Don't waste your time, it's pretty clear now that he's an ex-pat who thinks this country is shit because of lefties and anyone who doesn't think like he does. I know his kind. It's often the very privileged people who don't have to worry about food, or losing their jobs or their rights who are "against" protests. They think they're the only ones with the right to protest (more about this at the end of the comment).

We have very clear laws about the right to protest, no matter where you do it. This right often conflicts with the right to circulation (that's what he means with his comment). Have there been protests that cut the streets? Yeah, most of them because guess what? That's what's needed to get the point across, otherwise people just won't care. You know who also protested by cutting circulation? Patricia Bullrich, the person who now criminalized protests, want proof? I'll give you some.

1) This is Milei, our current president who just criminalized the right to protest in the streets. He's protesting in the streets while funnily enough Patricia Bullrich was also the Ministry of Security.
https://x.com/MauroFdz/status/1735511893421305885
2) December of 2017, Patricia Bullrich (who just criminalized protests) is promoting the repression of retired old people who were against a reform of the retirement system.
https://x.com/MDKporsiempre/status/1735248940818116779
3) Iñaki Gutierrez, a part of this new government who is also in favour of criminalizing protests in the streets, seen in protesting in the streets during the pandemic (against lockdown). This protest made a spike in COVID cases.
https://x.com/lauligresti/status/1734969863410418083
4) This is the day Milei (current president who just criminalized protests in the streets) and Bullrich (current ministry of security who just criminalized protests in the streets) met. They were protesting in the streets while also cutting circulation.
https://x.com/pripppri/status/1735457291548205199
5) This is Espert, member of the deputy chamber. Seen protesting in the streets against lockdown, along with Milei.
https://x.com/sinurrieta/status/1735491827849904536
6) You know what Espert tweeted yesterday to some members of the left coalition? That if they are to protest in the streets they'll either go to jail or get shot (as in, killed with real bullets).
https://x.com/elcancillercom/status/1735454720259420450
7) This is Bullrich, again protesting in the streets and cutting circulation. Nobody repressed them, because protesting is our right. Unless they're in power, of course.
https://x.com/Pampa139/status/1735444814336790547
8) Another video of Milei and Bullrich the day they met while protesting and cutting circulation.
https://x.com/pripppri/status/1735457291548205199

So yeah, this dude is full of shit and is yet another proof of how rights and laws are only for some. When they protested and cut circulation nobody did anything, because that's how we roll. Only when they get in power is when protests end up being more violent, you know why? Ding ding ding, because of repression.
I wonder why less than a week after getting into power do they criminalize protesting in the streets... could it be because they know they're fucking us all? I wonder.

Thanks for being a real one, Xzi.