http://www.ktemkin.com/faq-fusee-gelee/

Kate has collected and answered the most common questions she's gotten regarding Fusée Gelée. Most notably she explains the three "types" of FG hacks, software, hardware (temporary) and hardware (permanent).

Enjoy!

Kate herself responded to this thread on page 26, thanks Kate!

There's a lot more here than I can easily respond to, so apologies if I miss posts or gloss over points.



This is correct-- while there likely will be software chains around for these things in the future, I don't see them as coming along as quickly as f-g. We don't have a non-coldboot exploit chain at all for 5.0.0-- and we haven't looked yet, as we've had other things to focus on and coldboot works. We do have one for 4.1.0, but it's centered around a couple of exploits that we don't want to burn-- we're hoping to use them to get an opportunity to poke around inside T214/Mariko.



I don't view you as particularly hostile, no. I don't know if challenge is generally a good thing-- sometimes you do have to accept that other people have different ethics or viewpoints from yourself and let that pass, especially if they're just doing stuff for fun-- but I don't view your post as hostile.



Jamais Vu (1.0.0 TrustZone hack) isn't my bug, but has been written up, and is just awaiting someone with the skills to have time to do a public interpretation. Déjà Vu is currently centered around the exploit I mentioned above, and we definitely want to hold onto that for as long as it's applicable. It's entirely a Switch bug, too, so I don't see it as being something that needs responsible disclosure.



For Déjà Vu, absolutely. (explained in last quote)



I don't agree that things like tweeting are ego. This is something I work on because I find it a lot of fun to hack on things, and there's definitely an aspect in which it makes me happy when seeing the results of things makes other people happy. There's also an aspect in which I hope that showing these things are possible inspires people to want to learn e.g. reverse engineering. This stuff is cool; and I want to share the excitement with others and lift them up as much as I can.

You don't have to believe me on that or like that that's my goal. I won't hold it against you if you don't.



I honestly support people updating when it makes sense; and I recognize that there's a conflict between holding back information and enabling others to make reasonable decisions about that. I don't like or feel good about secrecy, and I know it has implications. I've tried to be as clear as I can about the costs regarding updating without crossing the line into giving things away.



I think we've been pretty clear that 4.1.0 will eventually see a non-coldboot, software-only exploit with the same level of power. That's actually been posted on the ReSwitched Discord's FAQ for months, but I know the message gets skewed as its gets communicated over to other places. That's part of why I'm here, now-- I want to help clear things up.

The interactions between the operating system and the bootloader-- say on reboot-- are actually fairly limited; and knowing what any of them are is enough to point people at the particular section of bootrom that's vulnerable. That's why I'm not commenting on Fusée Gelée and how it relates to software-only solutions right now. I have said e.g. above that since there's no public way of getting the privileges necessary to run things, 4.1.0 isn't going to see a pure software solution that the public can use at the time that f-g is released. Software exploits will likely come in time; and it's possible we'll come up with things that are even easier than f-g.



I'm not sure if they'll take it seriously enough. I don't know how they are internally-- but I can't just assume they'll fail to do anything and skip disclosure. Honestly, I don't think a "security advisory" is really a bad thing, either-- there are definitely applications of Tegra chips that I and/or the public don't know about. If giving NVIDIA notice gives them time to explain exactly what's dangerous and allow their customers to remove and replace units from places where the vulnerability can cause harm, I consider that a win, and well worth delaying some public switch hacks by a few months.

I'll also say that my fear that vendors won't take the vulnerability seriously is a huge reason I'm so keen to get things out there-- and why I provided a date after which I'll tell the public what's going on that I've said was non-negotiable. I want to make sure this doesn't get hidden, and that people understand exactly what f-g can and can't accomplish, to minimize FUD while also letting people understand the actual risks are associated with using a vulnerable device.



It changes this from an exploit that's going to be usable before the affected people know it's a thing to something that people may have a chance to react to. Making the vulnerability public without disclosure really increases the odds someone is capable of using it to do bad.

I didn't really give NVIDIA a chance to sell-off stock; though. I've said publicly multiple times that there are bugs in Tegra processors well before NVIDIA reached out to me seeking disclosure. If anything, I think telling the public that these vulnerabilities exist while pursuing disclosure helps developers interested in using Tegra chips in the future ask the right question.



I've already said that while pure-software stuff is doable on 4.1.0; it'll be a wait. As far as I'm remembering, the only part of the chain that could require multiple tries to work is PegaSwitch, which is our browser-based entry point, and I haven't even tried the browser entry point that'll eventually be public to see how reliable it is. SciresM did the work to get our non-coldboot exploit working on 4.1.0; not me.



Yeah, that's hard-- especially as everyone has a different view as to how inconvenient things are. I don't know of a way to communicate this better without more details.

Incidentally, the 'inconvenience' verbiage came from SciresM and I discussing our respective views on updating. I think SciresM is more towards the opinion that people should hold back more often, where I'm more of the opinion that updating can be a good and reasonable option sometimes. The way we wound up phrasing things is a compromise between views.



(I'm going to assume this meant "on the hacking side". If not I'm not sure what hacking site you're referring to.)

Updating to latest just closes the possibility of using software exploits launched from Horizon, which can make setup more difficult. I know you'd like to know how much, but I unfortunately don't have a good way of qualifying that. As I've mentioned, if you're suffering from not being able to use your 3.0.1+ Switch, you probably do want to upgrade and just risk things being more inconvenient in the future. Worst comes to worst, if you decide you can't tolerate the inconvenience, you upgrade and then wind up having to figure out a modchip.

The downgrade protection fuses literally mean nothing to a system with f-g, which can entirely skip the downgrade check. Incidentally, SciresM actually accidentally bricked one of his systems in a way such that it was always failing the downgrade checks, and he's been able to use f-g to get that system up and running again.



I don't think that's clear at all, nor do I want to confirm or deny this. Sorry.



I think you're making a bunch of assumptions here, and that's maybe not a great idea. I'm not saying you're necessarily right or wrong; just that I don't think your assumptions are founded.



I don't think this contradicts. This is talking about vulnerabilities that aren't f-g; not because f-g doesn't work on 4.1.0, but because it's possible we may come up with vulnerabilities that are even nicer on 4.1.0 in the future.



I'm being as clear as I feel I can, and adding clarifications e.g. here where I think it helps. There will be different names for the the ways you can use f-g eventually; and I'll be fully open about everything once the summer rolls around and I'm not putting the disclosure timeline in jeopardy.



I know and have said about that this "bring your own exploit" business makes development exclusive, and that's exclusionary and I really don't like it-- I just don't see a way around it. I would love to get more developers and more perspective, and that's why my release date for f-g is tied to my disclosure timeline and not in particular to Atmosphère's release.




I've tried to point out approximately what the difficulty would be for some of the options to kind of provide this, but this is a hard thing to accomplish. In this case, providing details that are more specific really points a finger at vulnerability details, so there's not much I'm comfortable sharing. I've shared what I could-- as a data point, some of the other teams have outright stated that they think I've shared too much already and made things obvious. I don't agree or necessarily care about their opinons, but c'est la vie.



Well, this isn't the case. This has been disclosed to Nintendo, too-- as NVIDIA shares their vulnerability findings with downstream customers. It's more general malicious actors that I'd be worried about.



See above-- but I don't think I'd advise specifically updating to 4.1.0 unless that gives you enough access to the games you want.



I'm also super glad that we can do a lot of our work in the open. I hope there's a lot more of it in the future-- and I'd love to stream some of it.



I find the requirement disheartening as well, but I think this is the right way to do things, for now. I've explained my rationale above; feel free to ask questions.



I'm not sure why people are against communication, here. There were definite benefits to talking about f-g in the first place; including that it demonstrates that Tegra chips are vulnerable-- which hopefully influences buying decisions in the future and puts pressure on NVIDIA to seek as much of a fix as they can. After that there seemed to be definitely benefits to talking about more details, even in the limited sense that I'm able to. I've tried to give people more information than the nothing they would have had so they could have more of an idea whether it's be a good idea to e.g. pre-order a modchip or update their system. I know it can be frustrating to not get full disclosure, and that more information would help people to make a better or more conclusive decision, but full disclosure isn't an option until this summer. I don't think that's a reason to hold back information.



I don't have specific answers to your questions, unfortunately-- but I think it sounds like the main purpose of this Switch is as a gaming device and maybe you should upgrade and enjoy playing games with your son.



I don't think that asking for clarification is criticism. It might be rude to push me to answer something I said I wouldn't, but I don't think there's harm in answer.



I don't think I've said anything about opening the console or not. See above for my views on updating?



I'm not sure where you got this impression, or why you're confident about things enough to claim you know about the internal values or working of ReSwitched. This is also easily disprovable just from public information--Hedgeberg has tested out f-g on stream. I don't see it as great opsec to enumerate how many people have access to the vulnerability, but we've long had a policy of only giving exploit details to those who actually want to know them and are in a position where they can use them to help. This is a basic security precaution and not about trust.

I'm actually not sure how this is relevant to the broader discussion. Based on your post history, I can tell that you strongly support TX and the option they're providing, and you're welcome to that, but I think throwing around generic unfounded criticism of RS doesn't do much good and distracts from me answering community questions.



I don't think they're obviously more convenient, as they exist right now. They're both inherently however-tethered-you-consider-PegaSwitch, take a bunch of time to run, and rely on a pegaswitch entry point.



That's not correct-- everyone on a current hardware revision will be able to install and use CFW the day it's released, if they're willing to put in the effort and potentially take on some minor risk.



I'm actually not sure what you mean by this entire post? Sorry about that-- I'd love to address your ideas, but unfortunately I can't figure out your meaning.



That was about me having fun by trying to see if a DIY, cheap modchip option is reasonable. It turns out it is. As you've noted, it's not necessary on any firmware. I just really like the idea that the open exchange of knowledge -- especially when profit's not a motive -- can result in creation of neat options for the community. ^-^



Yep; that's exactly what it means.



I don't think this has been at all implied-- and you'd be hard pressed to find a way to make a solder-less Arduino option that even remotely fits in the Switch case.

I should also clarify that the DIY option isn't solderless.

If you have or are going to get the game anyway, you can. Those versions are pretty much interchangeable in the long-term.



Yep-- and it's possible at some point that we'll allow you to install Fake News without Puyo using f-g/Atmosphère. The original plan was to release Atmosphère for 1.0.0 first while we tried to figure out how to deal with Fusée Gelée, but we actually wound up with a disclosure schedule that was faster than we'd thought.

 

[Dread_Pirate_PJ]

As an aside, the devs deserve a huge amount of credit for the response to the release. A lot of well laid plans went out the window, yet we’ve seen nothing but efforts to help users with releases in response. Not trying to sound patronising, but with so many people complaining about scene ‘drama’ and devs getting angry, we’ve seen the exactly opposite this week.

It's only Wednesday. Give it time.

 

[Draxzelex]

As an aside, the devs deserve a huge amount of credit for the response to the release. A lot of well laid plans went out the window, yet we’ve seen nothing but efforts to help users with releases in response. Not trying to sound patronising, but with so many people complaining about scene ‘drama’ and devs getting angry, we’ve seen the exactly opposite this week.

To be fair, all of the development teams released their work only because someone beat them to the punch. So while they did an immense amount of voluntary work, which I too am grateful for, it was recently released since their hands were forced. I'm also not saying they would have never released their work on their own schedule, but in light of the current events, it all began with the inherent drama we are all so accustomed to. Another thought I had was this was pretty much how previous hacking scenes had developed, i.e. Wii U and 3DS. It makes me worried that what happened in the last 48 hours may soon become the norm for hacking scenes for future consoles.

 

[TheCyberQuake]

They were planning to release on June 15th, but the release of the exploit was forced to happen early, so none of the soft mod installers for 1.0.0 or 3.0.0 or the simple modchip are finished.

There is no trickery or conspiracy happening. The plan simply went to shit when the exploit had to be released early.

The software methods aren't installers, and are still tethered exploits. The only difference is instead of shorting pins (the hardmod) to enter RCM, you can use software to boot into RCM. The difference is the entry to RCM. Once in RCM it works the same way by needing to be plugged into a USB controller that sends the exploit and payload

 

[Lacius]

The software methods aren't installers, and are still tethered exploits. The only difference is instead of shorting pins (the hardmod) to enter RCM, you can use software to boot into RCM. The difference is the entry to RCM. Once in RCM it works the same way by needing to be plugged into a USB controller that sends the exploit and payload

A minor detail, but you also shouldn't have to press the volume+ button to enter RCM with the software methods on 1.0.0-3.0.0 (and later 3.0.1-4.1.0).

 

[Maximilious]

The software methods aren't installers, and are still tethered exploits.

A minor detail, but you also shouldn't have to press the volume+ button to enter RCM with the software methods on 1.0.0-3.0.0 (and later 3.0.1-4.1.0).

I thought the software methods would be launched via PegaSwitch / HBL on 1.0-3.0? Has that been debunked?

 

[Draxzelex]

I thought the software methods would be launched via PegaSwitch / HBL on 1.0-3.0? Has that been debunked?

More like, no one has any idea what those software methods are. They COULD be loaded via Pegaswitch/HBL. Or maybe kate was working on some other way of loading it that she hasn't disclosed yet for unknown reasons. Basically, there is a lack of information on what the supposed softmod for firmwares 3.0 below is and by lack of, I mean there's literally nothing. Also, Lacius is correct when he mentioned that you don't need to press any buttons to boot into recovery mode for those firmwares because the software method involves the third bullet point (potentially) mentioned in the disclosure PDF.

 

[TheCyberQuake]

I thought the software methods would be launched via PegaSwitch / HBL on 1.0-3.0? Has that been debunked?

The software method works exactly like the hardware method. Just instead of modding your joycon to enter RCM, you just activate the pegaswitch script which then boots into RCM without the hardmod. Both the hardware and software methods boot into RCM which then requires a computer to send the exploit, at least with what's currently released and discussed in discord.
1.0.0-4.1.0 will eventually see cfw without a pc thanks to jamais vu and deja vu. But not for a bit, at least for anything over 1.0.0

 

[TheCyberQuake]

A minor detail, but you also shouldn't have to press the volume+ button to enter RCM with the software methods on 1.0.0-3.0.0 (and later 3.0.1-4.1.0).

Yes I know that, the software methods reboots straight into RCM without extra input.

 

[brndo]

So I'm still on 3.0.0 the FAQ mentions that there some upside to staying put, with all the developments this week its unclear what advantage there is/isn't. Other than Pluto's exploit (which feels moot) - any reason to stay?

Can someone clarify?

 

[Draxzelex]

So I'm still on 3.0.0 the FAQ mentions that there some upside to staying put, with all the developments this week its unclear what advantage there is/isn't. Other than Pluto's exploit (which feels moot) - any reason to stay?

Can someone clarify?

3.0 has a software method of booting into RCM which can only otherwise be done by some type of pinhax. However, it hasn't be released yet and there's no official date. Most likely, it'll be out on June 15 since that was the original date for everything to be released

 

[brndo]

3.0 has a software method of booting into RCM which can only otherwise be done by some type of pinhax. However, it hasn't be released yet and there's no official date. Most likely, it'll be out on June 15 since that was the original date for everything to be released

Ah, thanks. Now I'm thinking that its probably still unclear but I wonder if the CFW install will be permanent (such than I can update after install).

 

[Dmafra]

Fusee gelee power button now return to rmc

 

[TerraPhantm]

3.0 has a software method of booting into RCM which can only otherwise be done by some type of pinhax. However, it hasn't be released yet and there's no official date. Most likely, it'll be out on June 15 since that was the original date for everything to be released

Is a software method of getting into RCM really that helpful? You'd still need a computer to send a payload.

Might as well just bridge the pins on the joycon (or add a switch if Nintendo starts checking to see if that pin is persistently pressed).

 

[Draxzelex]

Is a software method of getting into RCM really that helpful? You'd still need a computer to send a payload.

Might as well just bridge the pins on the joycon (or add a switch if Nintendo starts checking to see if that pin is persistently pressed).

I mean some people have damaged either their Joy-Con or Switch with the hardmod so not entirely unreasonable. Also, you can now send the payload via Android so thats certainly a lot more convenient than connecting to a computer. Every little bit helps.

 

[TerraPhantm]

I mean some people have damaged either their Joy-Con or Switch with the hardmod so not entirely unreasonable. Also, you can now send the payload via Android so thats certainly a lot more convenient than connecting to a computer. Every little bit helps.

Right, I just don't see the big convenience difference with a software reboot into RCM mode vs forcing it into RCM mode by pressing a button. Especially when the former requires you to give up the ability to play new games and such.

 

[Draxzelex]

Right, I just don't see the big convenience difference with a software reboot into RCM mode vs forcing it into RCM mode by pressing a button. Especially when the former requires you to give up the ability to play new games and such.

It is what it is. People who solder would definitely consider this hardmod child's play while a noob might end up damaging more than the pins that need to be connected. But you bring up a good point that being on the latest firmware right now is not too big a deal when it comes to the exploits if you're fine with shorting a pin.

 

[scroeffie]

so do i buy a switch now ? the cheapest i could fins cost 322 euros with out a game

 

[sarkwalvein]

so do i buy a switch now ? the cheapest i could fins cost 322 euros with out a game

Yes, and also buy a pack of beers and send it to me, and some steaks, yeah I could use some steaks. Do you need me to tell you what else to buy? Hmmm, ok, then send me a 200GB microSD card, mine is kinda full already lately.

 

[saneatsu]

Is a software method of getting into RCM really that helpful? You'd still need a computer to send a payload.

Might as well just bridge the pins on the joycon (or add a switch if Nintendo starts checking to see if that pin is persistently pressed).

From what i understand its not just getting into rcm but Deja Vu (fw 2.x-4.1) & Jamais Vu (1.0.0) are a part of a chainloader so we're not reliant on a computer.

 

[reminon]

I mean some people have damaged either their Joy-Con or Switch with the hardmod so not entirely unreasonable. Also, you can now send the payload via Android so thats certainly a lot more convenient than connecting to a computer. Every little bit helps.

Unless you are gonna run pegaswitch from android, you would still need a pc.