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If You Are in Favor of Open Borders. Why?

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Xzi

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Current president a "bitchboy", yes.
However, you neglect to mention the former president, who granted a legislative monopoly to one of the most corrupt industries in the US (health insurance). Not to mention the ear marks in the same bill that granted only a small handful of financial institutions the ability to offer loans of a particular type (student loans), while being subsidized to keep interest rates low.
The corruption stems from both sides of the isle, to be sure.
Not quite the same thing, are they? Giving insurance to people with preexisting conditions vs giving massive tax breaks to corporations that don't need them and sucking up to dictators. I've heard of comparing apples to oranges before, but this is more like comparing apples to volcanoes.

Also I'm still waiting on that universal healthcare Trump promised during the campaign.
 
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0x3000027E

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and what if a said country is run by a dictator who is hell bent on purging an entire religion or faction (hitler/sadaam husein to name two) what I'm saying is sometimes illegals do this to prevent getting murdered in their own countries terrorism will exist regardless and to put islam as the only real threat is dead wrong we have neo nazi's and anarchist already in the US just waiting for the right time to strike, you know the saying "the enemy from within"?

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wrong it was the republican controlled congress during obama's years made the AHCA the way it was they wouldn't pass it til they got their greedy little hands on it,Obama wanted it differently more like canada's universal health care system that what it started out as the republicans love people not in the know like you for the votes
That's his name signed on the bill.
 

kuwanger

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"Climate" change research gets plenty of funding. Sadly, it draws from funding normally allocated to important medical/technology research that aims to enhance our quality of life.

Well, this suggests we're spending ~$12 billion yearly (plus additional spending) on climate change. Funny how, Trump is more than willing to cut ~$5 billion for his wall from the military. So, if we pretend we do have such specific funds, why not take another $12 billion from the military? I mean, that's the problem with the argument if you're just upset we're not using said money on other things like medical/technology research.

Eh... scientific theories are, and will always be up for debate.
The unfortunate matter, as you illustrate here, is that "climate" change became a political matter. Any serious discussion of the topic is usually obscured by some partisan political agenda.

Theories are always up for debate, but there's no one making any sort of compelling scientific argument against climate change. The rate, the scale of the risk, and the economic cost? Sure. But not that it's happening. As for it becoming a political matter, so did cigarettes. Hell, the government supplied cigarettes to its troops at a time when it become more and more obvious that cigarettes cause cancer. The political motivation to do anything substantial about it took decades.

When it comes to burning oil/coal/natural gas instead of cigarettes and it's not something we can "trivially" quit? Of course there's going to be massive resistance with strawmen created and burned--at least that's carbon neutral--because those arguing for change get massive resistance. Admittedly, the extreme doomsday stuff is overblown, but the opposite side of that is the inertia that refuses to do *anything* because they perceive any efforts to switch to other energy sources, more efficiency, etc as somehow a reduction in quality of life. It's honestly insane when 90% of the goal is to maintain or grow the standard of living while switching to a much more carbon neutral energy base.

I get where the fear comes from. Some of the inertia comes from lobbying, but I think it also heavily comes from the mindset that "oil is good" and something we can't live without. Change is difficult, it rarely is done smoothly, there's almost always multiple false starts for anything massive and complex, and we don't like the disruption while ignoring the disruption is coming whether we change or not. That's what climate change is all about: the climate is changing if we keep doing business as usual, and eventually that will translate into all the problems above but it won't be on a controllable timetable. It'd be, instead, things that could go a lot worse*.

If your standing out in the sun all day begging, then you should be able to be at-least a walmart greeter.

There aren't enough walmarts for all the beggers. Hell, plenty of walmarts don't even have greeters because they don't want to have to pay for another warm body. That is how many companies go.

* Actually watching the Irish Potato Famine on Extra History lately. I think most countries have the food stores to buffer probably years of problem, and even today we have overproduction of things like milk/cheese. The US is notorious for dumping agricultural goods on a lot of countries, and they may paradoxically buffer the risks of climate change. But the US is draining massive aquifers (another issue) and climate change will effect the US too. I guess for at least most everyone in the Senate, it won't be their problem; they'll likely be dead well before the worst of it comes.
 

0x3000027E

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Not quite the same thing, are they? Giving insurance to people with preexisting conditions vs giving massive tax breaks to corporations that don't need them and sucking up to dictators. I've heard of comparing apples to oranges before, but this is more like comparing apples to volcanoes.

Also I'm still waiting on that universal healthcare Trump promised during the campaign.
You act as if insurance is some kind of public service.
Insurance is a business model with a profit objective.
 

the_randomizer

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That would be a dumb idea, that's why it isn't part of the Green New Deal. It's just more nonsense for the alt-right to latch on to so they can keep pretending she has the same intelligence level as the president.


https://www.factcheck.org/2019/02/the-facts-on-the-green-new-deal/

What it says is context is that we likely won't be able to rid ourselves of air travel in the next ten years, thus we'll have to offset those carbon emissions some other way. So why mention getting rid of it at all? Because we have no idea what technology will look like ten to twenty years from now. We might have electric bullet trains, or hover cars, or even teleportation. Who knows. Lots of possibilities there for reducing carbon emissions during travel.

Ah, so people on the right are all morons and everyone on the left is a genius and infallible. Gotcha. I have two words: fuck. Politics.

At least that whiny bitch Clinton isn't in power.
 

Xzi

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You act as if insurance is some kind of public service.
Insurance is a business model with a profit objective.
Oh, absolutely. What that means in a capitalist system is that having it or not having it can be the difference between life and death. Obama wanted to take things a step further than Republicans allowed him to, but getting the system to insure patients with preexisting conditions was no small feat.

Ah, so people on the right are all morons and everyone on the left is a genius and infallible. Gotcha. I have two words: fuck. Politics.
The lesson is that you shouldn't take anybody's word at face value when it comes to politics. Especially not the word of Dick Cheney's daughter. When it comes to legislation, the best thing to do is read through it and form your own opinions before digesting anybody else's.
 
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the_randomizer

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Oh, absolutely. What that means in a capitalist system is that having it or not having it can be the difference between life and death. Obama wanted to take things a step further than Republicans allowed him to, but getting the system to insure patients with preexisting conditions was no small feat.

I am fucking done, no matter what views I have, no matter if I support the right-oriented views, I'm "wrong", I'm unintelligent, and more over. If I may say something, if the right is wrong and stupid, the left is comprised of nothing but sanctimonious troglodytes.


Edit: Having a relapse, I hate this, I hate this so much :cry:
 
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Xzi

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I am fucking done, no matter what views I have, no matter if I support the right-oriented views, I'm "wrong", I'm unintelligent, and more over. If I may say something, if the right is wrong and stupid, the left is comprised of nothing but sanctimonious troglodytes.
You always manage to work yourself up too much over this stuff. Nobody insulted you, and you'd know it if I had intended to.
 
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0x3000027E

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I am fucking done, no matter what views I have, no matter if I support the right-oriented views, I'm "wrong", I'm unintelligent, and more over. If I may say something, if the right is wrong and stupid, the left is comprised of nothing but sanctimonious troglodytes.


Edit: Having a relapse, I hate this, I hate this so much :cry:
This is actually one of the more civil discussions I've had in awhile. So far it's been point-counterpoint without any personal attacks.
Dont take any comments too personal or expend any emotion, it's all in good spirit!
 
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the_randomizer

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This is actually one of the more civil discussions I've had in awhile. So far it's been point-counterpoint without any personal attacks.
Dont take any comments too personal or expend any emotion, it's all in good spirit!

I'm..I've just tried to quit again, and I'm an emotional wreck right now. Please forgive me for taking this too seriously.
 
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CallmeBerto

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@Captain_N

If you don't give them UBI or welfare they will turn to crime just like many did when factories were first becoming a thing. You either....
A.) pay them off
B.) create an educational pathway to these new jobs (what I would be doing now)
C.) shot them in the face when they turn to crime. (what I would do)
 
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Deleted-401606

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I'm not looking to create a discussion between open vs closed/controlled borders but rather know why pro-open border folks like (or support) it so much.
Your flag is from Sweden now? I swear it said Portugal before.I must be going blind.
 

Taleweaver

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So...five pages, and hardly anything is on topic. Hmm... :unsure:
I'm not looking to create a discussion between open vs closed/controlled borders but rather know why pro-open border folks like (or support) it so much.

The more I reread that statement, the less difference I see between those two. Look: you know the context here. The republicans (well...at least the president) want to build a wall. The democrats consider that a waste of money. Anyone framing that stance as meaning that democrats want an open border are simply dead wrong.

Now...I know you didn't say any of this, but you can't ignore the context. Thanks to your "leader" everyone's cautious about sharing their opinion. The moment anyone says "heh...we have 52 states with open borders between them. I have no problem with this situation as the alternative would cost lots of money to achieve nothing worth achieving", this can get reworded as "innocent bystanders SHOCKED as democrats openly welcome Mexican drug trafficking prostitute criminals into our beloved country!!!!!".
 
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Panzerfaust

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With the looming threat of climate change, borders are genocidal as the global south, which already experiences the most poverty, are the first ones being affected by climate change (by the wealthiest people in the world who are contributing the most to climate change). Keeping black and brown people out western countries as the symptoms of climate change increase is simply unethical.

People ought to have the right of free travel regardless.

We didn't used to have borders and nation states and we can get back to a place where such constructs are not needed or utilized. Why should people in the first world experience a better quality of life simply because they were born within some arbitrary lines on a map?

913609_6LoT3SVA.jpg

Your utopia worldview will never work (and never worked be4) in the real world. You may be right, that borders as we know today are sometimes arbitrary lines but there always were and still are borders based on ethnical or religious identity. There are still indigenious tribes that dont accept any outsiders and would fight to death to defend their teretory. You know what, this is how nature is working. In reality nobody should give a shit on some arbitrary lines, but protect their cultural and ethnical identity and thus their teretory. States are come and go, but the ppl and their culture stay the same.
 
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leon315

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No idea. Anybody that does support open borders does not understand how it could completely kill an economy and puts it's citizens at risk.
here all Eurozone members are open-borders, people here can enjoy all the benefits from Duty-free on import and export.
 

kuwanger

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So...five pages, and hardly anything is on topic. Hmm... :unsure:

The thing is, at least as far as goods go the world has become incredibly open borders. If you ask people what good its done, most won't begin to comprehend the sort of trade wars with import/export taxes that used to be the norm and how it not only created a massive black market but created the wrong sort of government incentives--increasing imports/exports to increase government revenue*. The shift away from this towards income taxes has moved governments to incentivise income and job creation, which is honestly a much better system.

Meanwhile, in a lot of ways closed borders are a new thing. Nations in the past let a lot of people in as permanent residents and relative few could become citizens. The notion that this would create some sort of massive imbalance wasn't seen at the time because local taxes paid for local support systems. In the modern age, though, it's actually easier in some ways because the national tax can pay for certain local support systems but most safety nets are only available to citizens, meaning the ability of permanent residents or temporary workers to derive benefits is low but their contribution to society while paying taxes is high. Further, they frequently don't have much power to vote, and the rules of obtaining citizenship usually contains sufficient amounts of "proof" of assimilation that even large waves of immigrants shouldn't radically and rapidly shift the ideology of a country.

I guess what I'm saying is, when I first heard the question asked, what I really thought was "why pro-closed borders people like it so much" because truly closed borders seem rather terrible.

* Beyond the way that it encouraged strip mining countries of resources or having raw goods shipped "home" to make finished goods to stratify countries in empires. One thing about history that I'm actual curious about is just how much trade wars lead to real wars. Certainly, colonization itself lead to many wars, but the fact that countries were effectively trying to undercut each other with mercantilism heavily enhanced the notion that when you lost in trade you made up for it in war--at least, that's my impression of the way different countries in Europe behaved in the 1700s and earlier.
 

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I try not to be mean on this site but this is probably the stupidest thing I've ever read on GBATemp

Not as dumb as your open border bullshit ma boy. european culture in its core is the same as thousands of years be4, even after christians took over and tried to slaughter ancient religion of the germans, slavs, celtics etc... just an example.

Another example: germany lost teretory (prussia) to poland and russia (Königsberg / Kaliningrad)...so after ww2 german ppl who stayed there are now in another state, but they are still germans.

Now it's getting very offtopic...I wont reply anymore that has nothing to do with OPs topic.
 
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JoeBloggs777

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Another example: germany lost teretory (prussia) to poland and russia (Königsberg / Kaliningrad)...so after ww2 german ppl who stayed there are now in another state, but they are still germans.

Now it's getting very offtopic...I wont reply anymore that has nothing to do with OPs topic.

sorry i know it's off topic, but i wonder how many Europeans know Kaliningrad even exits :unsure:
 

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