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If You Are in Favor of Open Borders. Why?

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kuwanger

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And eliminating airplanes

Speaking of which... President Donald Trump says airplanes are 'becoming far too complex to fly' His solution? "pilots are no longer needed, but rather computer scientists from MIT," So, yea, add yet another layer of complexity by having planes flown by AI*. Then Trump can push MAGA for pilots. *sigh* Yet another great example of how Trump denounces someone else to turn out and prove it's because he believes the exact thing he denounces--either he's pro getting rid of pilots or he's effectively arguing for eliminating airplanes.

Hell, until we get self-driving cars, I don't think we should have wholly self-flying planes--and yes, I know in theory planes should be easier because you have planes at different altitudes and you don't have to worry about pedestrians, following limited paths, etc but the point is that planes are incredibly complex and failing safe would be exceptionally hard.

* Fun fact but plenty of fly-by-wire planes that are so hard to control often have equivalent to an AI that aids in keeping the plane up. Sometimes it's the AI that causes the problem directly by sensor failure or the like. Sometime it's the AI that indirectly cause the problem by masking issues until it's too late for the human pilot to more generally correct for. And of course, plenty of times it's human error, hardware malfunction, etc. The point is, as much as auto pilot is a thing and does a lot, it seems at best unwise to replace humans or even talk about complexity as the basis to switch to AI.
 

the_randomizer

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Speaking of which... President Donald Trump says airplanes are 'becoming far too complex to fly' His solution? "pilots are no longer needed, but rather computer scientists from MIT," So, yea, add yet another layer of complexity by having planes flown by AI*. Then Trump can push MAGA for pilots. *sigh* Yet another great example of how Trump denounces someone else to turn out and prove it's because he believes the exact thing he denounces--either he's pro getting rid of pilots or he's effectively arguing for eliminating airplanes.

Hell, until we get self-driving cars, I don't think we should have wholly self-flying planes--and yes, I know in theory planes should be easier because you have planes at different altitudes and you don't have to worry about pedestrians, following limited paths, etc but the point is that planes are incredibly complex and failing safe would be exceptionally hard.

* Fun fact but plenty of fly-by-wire planes that are so hard to control often have equivalent to an AI that aids in keeping the plane up. Sometimes it's the AI that causes the problem directly by sensor failure or the like. Sometime it's the AI that indirectly cause the problem by masking issues until it's too late for the human pilot to more generally correct for. And of course, plenty of times it's human error, hardware malfunction, etc. The point is, as much as auto pilot is a thing and does a lot, it seems at best unwise to replace humans or even talk about complexity as the basis to switch to AI.

I wouldn't trust autonomous cars as far as I can throw a football. Humans are imperfect, humans make mistakes, mistakes makes AI imperfect, and self-driving cars scare the hell out of me. Until all errors can be eliminated, no way. AI should not be trusted, smart technology can be hacked and exploited. I'm gonna pass on that.
 
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Xzi

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I wouldn't trust autonomous cars as far as I can throw a football. Humans are imperfect, humans make mistakes, mistakes makes AI imperfect, and self-driving cars scare the hell out of me. Until all errors can be eliminated, no way. AI should not be trusted, smart technology can be hacked and exploited. I'm gonna pass on that.
AI can learn from our mistakes and not make them, though. AI also can't get drunk, high, or overly-emotional. I'd agree that self-driving technology isn't quite there yet, but eventually it'll be far safer than human drivers, and not by a small margin.

As far as "hacking" autonomous cars goes, it wouldn't be any easier than hacking a car's computer right now. Which is to say it'd be rather difficult, given where the computer is typically located in a car's assembly. If someone wanted to do you harm, it'd be far simpler to pour sugar into your gas tank or cut your brake line.
 
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the_randomizer

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AI can learn from our mistakes and not make them, though. AI also can't get drunk, high, or overly-emotional. I'd agree that self-driving technology isn't quite there yet, but eventually it'll be far safer than human drivers, and not by a small margin.

As far as "hacking" autonomous cars goes, it wouldn't be any easier than hacking a car's computer right now. Which is to say it'd be rather difficult, given where the computer is typically located in a car's assembly. If someone wanted to do you harm, it'd be far simpler to pour sugar into your gas tank or cut your brake line.

Just don't want a Skynet situation in the end.
 
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kuwanger

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As far as "hacking" autonomous cars goes, it wouldn't be any easier than hacking a car's computer right now.

AFAIK, the only major thing protecting most computers today is their proprietary protocols for communication. Plenty of people who have figured it out learned how to hack their system. And as "smart" cars with built-in Android and the like become the norm, I only see it getting worse because car manufacturers are sloppy at best when it comes to security. I mean, the whole idea of automated fleets of trucks is precisely that they can be remotely directed. Imagine the "fun" waking up to a fleet of trucks blocking your car in or otherwise terrorizing you. Or the "fun" when someone bricks a fleet of cars.
 
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Deleted-401606

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Work ethic is motivation - pretty much solely.

Qualification is the only way out of poverty. Education is part of that.

IQ, dumb, lazy, .. we can pretty much leave out of it entirely.

Look at Trump for gods sake... ;) It usually doesnt matter that much. Opportunity, economic development, social scene and so on are more important.

Dumb people get rich. All the time. :) Motivated, high work ethic people loose jobs. All the time. There has to be zero correlation (one has nothing to do with the other) at this point... ;)

What happens rather, is that successful people get praised by everyone around them (social mechanism of people wanting to make friends) -- then they start to believe, that they are something special, and look at certain character traits to rectify that.

Look I've had high work ethik. Look I've had strong business acumen, look - I have superior intelligence.

Usually its nothing of the above.

But then you have them telling that to everyone - and people are picking it up, because that person must know, because they are successful...

(...writes book "The art of the deal"

People start buying his steaks. ;) )

Libtemp told me open borders were good.
 

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AFAIK, the only major thing protecting most computers today is their proprietary protocols for communication. Plenty of people who have figured it out learned how to hack their system. And as "smart" cars with built-in Android and the like become the norm, I only see it getting worse because car manufacturers are sloppy at best when it comes to security. I mean, the whole idea of automated fleets of trucks is precisely that they can be remotely directed. Imagine the "fun" waking up to a fleet of trucks blocking your car in or otherwise terrorizing you. Or the "fun" when someone bricks a fleet of cars.

Maybe Stephen King was right with his movie Maximum Overdrive being a reality.
 
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I like open borders because they make it so much easier for me to invade other countries.
 

Xzi

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I like open borders because they make it so much easier for me to invade other countries.
Open question: what the hell is the point of having the most powerful military on Earth, and more guns per square mile than any other country, if all it does is make us even more paranoid?

Anybody truly worried about a "Mexican invasion" needs to be asking themselves some hard questions about their own biases, because the idea is quite far detached from reality.
 
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Open question: what the hell is the point of having the most powerful military on Earth, and more guns per square mile than any other country, if all it does is make us even more paranoid?

Anybody truly worried about a "Mexican invasion" needs to be asking themselves some hard questions about their own biases, because the idea is quite far detached from reality.
Not so much worried about a Mexican invasion. I'm more worried about power hungry politicians forcing us to live a certain way, or banning self defense or any of that crap, you know? I should be able to defend my house from the government and not someone from a foreign country. I'm more worried about corrupt politicians.
 
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Open question: what the hell is the point of having the most powerful military on Earth, and more guns per square mile than any other country, if all it does is make us even more paranoid?

Anybody truly worried about a "Mexican invasion" needs to be asking themselves some hard questions about their own biases, because the idea is quite far detached from reality.

US isn't like any other country in Europe.There is literally every single culture of people living in America and it's just a big social experiment at this point.Every type of television programing is some form of agenda for the powerful to stay powerful and you can't even trust the news anymore because of "fake news".There is an agenda going on in the USA and most people are too ignorant to open their eyes and see it.Go to websites like reddit where the bais is completely obvious and everything is categorized into "right" and "wrong" even on subjects where the matter is objective.I don't want to get banned from LibTemp but Americans are paranoid for different reasons and it's no accident.

"“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
 

Xzi

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US isn't like any other country in Europe.There is literally every single culture of people living in America and it's just a big social experiment at this point.Every type of television programing is some form of agenda for the powerful to stay powerful and you can't even trust the news anymore because of "fake news".There is an agenda going on in the USA and most people are too ignorant to open their eyes and see it.Go to websites like reddit where the bais is completely obvious and everything is categorized into "right" and "wrong" even on subjects where the matter is objective.I don't want to get banned from LibTemp but Americans are paranoid for different reasons and it's no accident.

"“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."
Well, the experiment is Democracy, and ours is starting to decline at right around the same time it did for the Roman empire. It's unfortunate, but the truth is that America has a sizeable population that would rather live under authoritarian rule if it means all responsibility is lifted from them and all their decisions are made for them.
 
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Well, the experiment is Democracy, and ours is starting to decline at right around the same time it did for the Roman empire. It's unfortunate, but the truth is that America has a sizeable population that would rather live under authoritarian rule if it means all responsibility is lifted from them and all their decisions are made for them.

I don't even think most people realize that they are soon to be living under authoritarian rule,most people want handouts regardless of the consequences.We have 50% of the population that has IQ scores under 100 and certain subgroups are much lower than that on average.The current day world is highly reliant on technology which greatly reduces jobs for people that don't have a high intellectual capacity and as time goes on the problem is only going to be worse.In the past only rich people felt entitled due to how their parents raised them,but the current education system teaches even the poorest that they are entitled to everything they dream of without having to work for it.The current system of free handouts won't be feasible for long and the moral decline of the population is going to lead to a huge downfall.There are certain things that are being pushed on us that collapsed Rome back in the day(can't name them because of libtemp).I too am pretty certain that America will collapse just as Rome did,it's only a matter of time.I also predict that America is going to turn into Brazil 2.0 in terms of demographics and the way society functions.
 
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Saiyan Lusitano

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A lot of comments but few said why open borders may be good in their opinion. This is a simple question without being cheeky.

I'll let you all know that I'm against it but am interested in reading other peoples' opinions.
 

kuwanger

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I don't even think most people realize that they are soon to be living under authoritarian rule,most people want handouts regardless of the consequences.We have 50% of the population that has IQ scores under 100 and certain subgroups are much lower than that on average.The current day world is highly reliant on technology which greatly reduces jobs for people that don't have a high intellectual capacity and as time goes on the problem is only going to be worse.In the past only rich people felt entitled due to how their parents raised them,but the current education system teaches even the poorest that they are entitled to everything they dream of without having to work for it. The current system of free handouts won't be feasible for long and the moral decline of the population is going to lead to a huge downfall.

Any time period in any country in history called. They'd like to inform you nothing you said is new.

There are certain things that are being pushed on us that collapsed Rome back in the day(can't name them because of libtemp).I too am pretty certain that America will collapse just as Rome did,it's only a matter of time.I also predict that America is going to turn into Brazil 2.0 in terms of demographics and the way society functions.

Rome collapsed because of constant civil wars that were funded by generals promising their side land which necessitated constant expansion of the empire. Couple this with the fact that Rome itself heavily denied citizenship to most people and had a massive underclass of slaves and peons which had to be constantly placated to avoid upheavals. To that end, I'd agree with at least some of the parallels--a massive army, constantly focused on economic expansion, and a massive wealth disparity. One major difference is that those in Rome knew that as a lower class they and their children were almost certainly doomed to the same lot in life for dozens of generations. In America, around 50% of people are delusional enough to believe that if they only worked a little harder they could be part of the 1%. I don't dare ask, given the obvious ways in which they'd be so much better off, why they're so quick to disparage other people for being poor and lazy and yet don't work a little harder to achieve that which they believe.

Oh, and I have no idea why you throw in Brazil.
 

supersonicwaffle

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AI can learn from our mistakes and not make them, though. AI also can't get drunk, high, or overly-emotional. I'd agree that self-driving technology isn't quite there yet, but eventually it'll be far safer than human drivers, and not by a small margin.

As far as "hacking" autonomous cars goes, it wouldn't be any easier than hacking a car's computer right now. Which is to say it'd be rather difficult, given where the computer is typically located in a car's assembly. If someone wanted to do you harm, it'd be far simpler to pour sugar into your gas tank or cut your brake line.

I know this is off-topic but I'd like to make a point that I think people need to understand when it comes to groundbreaking technology. This also applies to discussions around automation and its effect on the job market as well.

When it comes to both autonomous driving and AI, both are driven by computer scientists. All developments coming out of them are usually subject to Gartner's hype cycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle).

What that means is that when some technology comes along that triggers development of new applications the expectation of what will be possible are hyper inflated. This may be because developers are just spitballing about possibilites or because they're enthusiastic about all the low hanging fruit they quickly solved during early development. This is where I currently see AI.
Remember, AI is considered so groundbreaking that it's considered a trigger for the fourth industrial revolution while being in fairly early development and the challenges start getting more and more apparent.

With regards to autonomous cars I believe it's starting to hit the "Trough of Disillusionment", the early drivers like Apple are already cutting their losses and getting out of it. IIRC Mercedes mentioned that correctly recognizing red lights is a huge problem and a much much harder challenge than aticipated. I would assume the "Slope of Enlightenment" will lead to very good near autonomous systems that are mainly focused on more controlled environments like Interstates / Autobahns, etc. while staying out of busy and more hectic urban traffic.

With regards to hacking, connected cars a significant security risk. Published papers showed attacks on Jeep vehicles that allowed an attacker to turn off a car driving on a highway. BMW has regularly had bad security holes in its connected cars. Earlier Tesla models used unencrypted OpenVPN. I'm not gonna lie it's pretty disgusting what they're doing from a security standpoint. I'm currently looking for a new car and I'm specifically looking for good assistance systems and infotainment systems without it being a connected car with a SIM card.
 

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