Hacking Is console hacking not illegal or what?

[Viri]

Btw, there are countries where the developing of homebrew is more or less illegal. Afaik, Britain i.e. says that Reverse Engineering (which is a big part of developing a way to hack a console) is illegal.

Uh-oh, Brits had better get off this site, or Scotland Yard is gonna come pounding on their door!

 

[guily6669]

Illegal is buying a powerful device and keep the device not able to do anything we want .

 

[subcon959]

Btw, there are countries where the developing of homebrew is more or less illegal. Afaik, Britain i.e. says that Reverse Engineering (which is a big part of developing a way to hack a console) is illegal.

This kinda shows the opposite is true: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...nctionality-is-not-subject-to-copyright.shtml

 

[Nightwish]

This kinda shows the opposite is true: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...nctionality-is-not-subject-to-copyright.shtml

For those unaware, there's multiple and different issues:
- reverse engineering;
- breaking effective copyright protection measures (or similar legal terms)
- post-sale EULAs
- whatever those twats and Oracle were arguing.

Functionality is covered by patents (which expire), and software being math (among other issues) is not patentable in Europe. If you could copyright functionality or APIs, we'd be left with a few dozen software programs, because everything else would be infringing - there's only so many ways to display a box, sort a list... fuck those assholes.

 

[lordelan]

You can do whatever you want with things you own. Modding your console is not illegal but it goes against the company's term of service so they can void your warranty rights.

Running open sourced homebrews is not illegal. Copyright infringement (using backup loader to run commercial games) is however illegal.

This is the most accurate post here.

 

[Ritsuki]

Please be careful guys, I haven't read all the pages, but it's a bit more complicated, and definitely not 100% safe. Legality will depend on the country you live in, and the hack itself. But modifying the firmware for example is illegal in the US thanks to the DMCA. But like someone said, it would be a waste of time and effort to track down every user and file a complaint. But they usually do it when there's money involved.

Here's a good article explaining this with a real case : https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2009/08/modder-arrest-a-reminder-that-most-console-hacks-are-illegal/

 

[notimp]

"Be carefull guys..." Sure, but with what?

We mostly talked about reverse engineering in here (i.e. "hacking" a console), not about selling chips with pirated and modded copies of Nintendos bios code on them - or piracy enabling aids.

The difference is about as harsh as the difference between the TV repair/cable guy that always wants to sell you "free cable access", and the software engineer capable of actually analyzing and bypassing software security measures.

Also be careful with what?

- Releasing actual hacks that open up the Switch in any form or fashion? Then you are talking to about maybe four or five people in here - some of which work in jurisdictions where reversing isnt illegal, some of which only are known here by pseudonyms (good idea, joe), and hopefully know how to hide their IPs in "discord chat", and operate by basic opsec rules.

- Selling modchips that don't exist, or tiny soldering services for modchips that dont exist?

- Downloading non copyrighted code from the internet, that lets you start homebrew? Hint: Github doesnt get cease and desists for that stuff...

- Doing "security research", and submitting flaws to Nintendos Bug bounty program (don't you dare! )?

- Later on downloading "maybe" more sensitive (as in copyrighted and modified) stuff, from a server that doesnt log IPs, doesnt have you sign up for an account, and hopefully isnt a honeytrap?

I mean, its nice to try to sum up the thread for the usual person, that can't see themselves reading more than 150 characters at the time - but, even then "be carefull - bystanders", seems like a stretch...

Also - I'd encurrage everyone to actually read this thread (including the wrong statements I made at first -) because, some of the stuff is actually interesting.

 

[TheTechGenius]

It is illegal. You are not using the product as advised and as agreed in the TOS.
GeoHotz from PS3 had to stop his development for a police raid on his place.

A TOS doesn't mean shit. A TOS is not the Law, and if it goes against the law (it does in most cases), it is then void in the eyes of the courts.

Can a child 17 and under sign a binding contract? No. That is illegal. No one signs the TOS, they may click accept, but they don't "Legally" agree to it. Therefore a TOS means nothing in court. In the USA anyway, I don't know about other countries.

 

[TheTechGenius]

Please be careful guys, I haven't read all the pages, but it's a bit more complicated, and definitely not 100% safe. Legality will depend on the country you live in, and the hack itself. But modifying the firmware for example is illegal in the US thanks to the DMCA. But like someone said, it would be a waste of time and effort to track down every user and file a complaint. But they usually do it when there's money involved.

Here's a good article explaining this with a real case : https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2009/08/modder-arrest-a-reminder-that-most-console-hacks-are-illegal/

In that article they say "Here is what the ESA had to say".

I don't want to hear what the ESA had to say, it's already proven they are corrupt, since most game publishers and console manufactures own and run the ESA. So they don't matter. It's a conflict of interest if you ask me.

Besides, all they said is that the kid was "Charged", not if he won in court or not. And honestly, I don't see how he can loose, unless he had a horrible lawyer.

 

[Ritsuki]

In that article they say "Here is what the ESA had to say".

I don't want to hear what the ESA had to say, it's already proven they are corrupt, since most game publishers and console manufactures own and run the ESA. So they don't matter. It's a conflict of interest if you ask me.

Besides, all they said is that the kid was "Charged", not if he won in court or not. And honestly, I don't see how he can loose, unless he had a horrible lawyer.

Okay, but that's just your opinion there, ESA being corrupt or not has nothing to do with hacking being illegal or not. And you can't be charged for legal things, if you're charged with something it implies it's illegal. Winning the case has nothing to do with it. A very simple example would be if you have to kill someone to protect your physical integrity. Killing someone is illegal. You will be charged for that, but then, because of special circumstances, you serve time for murder. But you will still be charged technically.

I don't know anything about the ESA, I live in Europe. What is this group? What is this corruption you're talking about? If they're indeed controlled by the gaming industry, there might be a conflict of interest (well, only if they have power to make bills pass or something).

Tl;dr : You can still do something illegal and win a case

 

[TheTechGenius]

Okay, but that's just your opinion there, ESA being corrupt or not has nothing to do with hacking being illegal or not. And you can't be charged for legal things, if you're charged with something it implies it's illegal. Winning the case has nothing to do with it. A very simple example would be if you have to kill someone to protect your physical integrity. Killing someone is illegal. You will be charged for that, but then, because of special circumstances, you serve time for murder. But you will still be charged technically.

I don't know anything about the ESA, I live in Europe. What is this group? What is this corruption you're talking about? If they're indeed controlled by the gaming industry, there might be a conflict of interest (well, only if they have power to make bills pass or something).

Tl;dr : You can still do something illegal and win a case

The ESA runs organizations like the ESRB. Which is the rating system for games in the USA. The ESRB is in charge of rating games based on the games content. They even said publicly that "Loot Boxes are NOT gambling".

Even though some games work just like a slot machine with real world money.

It's because the ESRB works for the ESA, and they both have HUGE gaming corporations backing them. Those big corporations backing them are thier investors. So why would they do the right thing and go against thier investors? They won't.

And just because your charged with something, doesn't mean your guilty. In the states your "Innocent until Proven guilty in a court of law".

 

[aSpookyNinja]

There's a few cases people have been fucked by Sony over reverse engineering. Geohot did something stupid and publicly released the keys for the PS3, but graf_chokolo was raided by the german police just because he was reverse engineering the PS3 hypervisor. I was served a cease and desist by activision and threatened with a lawsuit for developing mods for an activision game I shall not name.

 

[garyopa]

Totally illegal, all the thousands of members here will be raided soon!

 

[FAST6191]

I was served a cease and desist by activision and threatened with a lawsuit for developing mods for an activision game I shall not name.

Not wishing to push at all but I am curious.
My list of previous cases, outside of whatever nonsense China is doing, was mostly http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/10/tecmo_sues_xbox_game_hackers/ which was dropped in fairly short order https://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/27/tecmo_drops_ninjahacker_suit/
A few things for Chrono Trigger wherein the people basically capitulated upon notice.
Possibly some stuff for some Sega stuff on the DS (7th Dragon), though given their recent change of heart on hacks...
The Final Fantasy type 0 thing (while most focused on the near release of the same game the patch was also awfully made and included a lot of code).

Then whatever trademark stuff we see for fan games that get popular/press, generally not hacking related.

If you want to elaborate then please do -- not everything here will get press (and I don't know if they attached a "no talky" rider) so I am not surprised something slipped through the cracks but I do try to maintain a list.

 

[Nightwish]

I was served a cease and desist by activision and threatened with a lawsuit

Sadly, that doesn't mean anything about the legality. You have to screw up really badly to be penalized for a false C&D or baseless lawsuit, while the other party loses a lot of time and money.

 

[JellyPerson]

if you bought you own it unless its a sony product

 

[Vieela]

I don't think it's necessarily ILLEGAL, it does breaks the TOS of most (if not all) consoles. I don't think exploiting a console is something illegal either, but also breaks TOS. I think it can only be illegal when it goes beyond breaking DMCA/Copyright or any kind of file/archive/etc protection system. Rather than that, it's legal or most likely to hit a grey area.

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Ritsuki]

The ESA runs organizations like the ESRB. Which is the rating system for games in the USA. The ESRB is in charge of rating games based on the games content. They even said publicly that "Loot Boxes are NOT gambling".

Even though some games work just like a slot machine with real world money.

It's because the ESRB works for the ESA, and they both have HUGE gaming corporations backing them. Those big corporations backing them are thier investors. So why would they do the right thing and go against thier investors? They won't.

And just because your charged with something, doesn't mean your guilty. In the states your "Innocent until Proven guilty in a court of law".

You're totally right, but again, if you're charged, it means that the thing you're accused of is illegal. You cannot be charged for eating a cupcake for example, because it's not illegal That's why I was trying to put an emphasis on the legality of an act, and being prosecuted. In Switzerland for example, downloading copyrighted material is illegal, but as long as you don't make money out of it, you won't be prosecuted.

Thank you for the informations, it looks like there's a big conflict of interest indeed.

 

[RedBlueGreen]

You're totally right, but again, if you're charged, it means that the thing you're accused of is illegal. You cannot be charged for eating a cupcake for example, because it's not illegal That's why I was trying to put an emphasis on the legality of an act, and being prosecuted. In Switzerland for example, downloading copyrighted material is illegal, but as long as you don't make money out of it, you won't be prosecuted.

Thank you for the informations, it looks like there's a big conflict of interest indeed.

Piracy is a copyright infringement anyway, so it's like violating a contract (it's civil law). It's not a criminal offense like actual theft of physical goods. I know it's like this in North America, though I wouldn't be surprised if some European countries treat it super seriously. So assuming you're in a country where it's just a copyright infringement the most that'll happen is you get sued.

 

[Ritsuki]

Piracy is a copyright infringement anyway, so it's like violating a contract (it's civil law). It's not a criminal offense like actual theft of physical goods. I know it's like this in North America, though I wouldn't be surprised if some European countries treat it super seriously. So assuming you're in a country where it's just a copyright infringement the most that'll happen is you get sued.

Well, in France it can go up to a 10000€ fine and a few years in prison And no need to file a complaint or something