Ivermectin proves ineffective against covid 19

[tabzer]

It wasn't? I went from referencing effectiveness to referencing the reduction in hospitalizations. That was my bad. 1.6% fewer patients hospitalized = 10% more effective than placebo. So we were both right. I maintain, however, that these numbers are not strong enough to prescribe Ivermectin for the purpose of treating COVID-19. I'm not exactly sure on what the baseline is in the medical/pharmaceutical community, but I'd wager it's a lot closer to 50% than 10%. Vaccines are roughly 90% more effective than placebo at preventing hospitalizations, so there's absolutely no point in insisting on a poor substitute.

I believe the initial confusion was delivered straight from the source. You are wrong because you insist on carrying whatever "truths" it's saying despite that it is fraudulent.

 

[Xzi]

I believe the initial confusion was delivered straight from the source. You are wrong because you insist on carrying whatever "truths" it's saying despite that it is fraudulent.

Uh-huh. Back to pretending that Joe Rogan and Alex Jones are more reliable sources than peer-reviewed published studies, eh?

It's in no way fraudulent. 10% more effective than placebo falls very much within the classification of ineffective, especially when accounting for variables that could not be controlled. We could re-run the test with one placebo group and the other given play-doh to eat, and probably end up with relatively the same results.

 

[tabzer]

Back to pretending that Joe Rogan and Alex Jones are more reliable sources than peer-reviewed published studies, eh?

Nice, toss some red herrings and lie some more. I'm not pretending that anyone is reliable.

 

[Xzi]

I'm not pretending that anyone is reliable.

Well unless you've personally got the means to conduct a months-long study of thousands of patients, that philosophy isn't gonna take you very far in this discussion. Time to grow up and realize that you don't and can't know everything. Knowingly or not, you've been deferring to the knowledge of experts in various fields your whole life, and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[tabzer]

Well unless you've personally got the means to conduct a months-long study of thousands of patients, that philosophy isn't gonna take you very far in this discussion. Time to grow up and realize that you don't and can't know everything. Knowingly or not, you've been deferring to the knowledge of experts in various fields your whole life, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Lol. I'm not pretending that everyone is unreliable either. For fuck's sake.

 

[lolcatzuru]

Depends on what kind of material you're talking about. Those polyester gaiters that a lot of people were wearing at the beginning of the pandemic were all but useless, and that was confirmed early on by the medical/scientific community. The non-N95 surgical type masks are still a helluva lot better than nothing at all, though, which is why Asian cultures were wearing them to filter polluted air and prevent themselves from spreading sickness decades before this pandemic started.

except particulates like thare are INFINITELY larger than you know, viruses. IIRC the debree in the air is like 3 microns, and viruses are 1. and for the record it doesnt completely protect them just might help a little bit ish.

 

[lolcatzuru]

Uh-huh. Back to pretending that Joe Rogan and Alex Jones are more reliable sources than peer-reviewed published studies, eh?

It's in no way fraudulent. 10% more effective than placebo falls very much within the classification of ineffective, especially when accounting for variables that could not be controlled. We could re-run the test with one placebo group and the other given play-doh to eat, and probably end up with relatively the same results.

what did joe rogan say specifically? because all i remember are decorated doctors like dr. robert malone who is one of the doctors who worked on MRNA tech, which led to the magic needle, so if this information isnt reliable, maybe we should stop using the vaccine hmmm

 

[Xzi]

except particulates like thare are INFINITELY larger than you know, viruses. IIRC the debree in the air is like 3 microns, and viruses are 1. and for the record it doesnt completely protect them just might help a little bit ish.

I'm aware, that's why mask requirements were typically paired with social distancing. Masks don't completely stop sneezes or coughs from getting out, but they do reduce the overall distance that the particulates move by quite a bit.

what did joe rogan say specifically? because all i remember are decorated doctors like dr. robert malone who is one of the doctors who worked on MRNA tech, which led to the magic needle, so if this information isnt reliable, maybe we should stop using the vaccine hmmm

Malone is a grifter, so he's pretty typical guest material for Rogan in that sense. Says he had a hand in creating the MRNA vaccines, but the rest of the medical community denies this, and he certainly doesn't have any receipts to prove it.

 

[subcon959]

It seems to me that the evidence for Ivermectin is more clear (not great just more clear) than the evidence for most masks that aren't N95, yet look at the entirely different stances that have been taken for the last couple years. On the one hand, something is better than nothing and on the other lol horse dewormer. Wouldn't you rather vulnerable people have that extra 10% chance than not?

 

[AlexMCS]

@Xzi I'd totally agree with you if this study was done in a vacuum.
10% effectiveness on a single study is indeed pretty insignificant.

However almost every study has shown some gains.
In fact, 70 out of 81 showed positive effect¹:

Treatment time	Number of studies reporting positive effects	Total number of studies	Percentage of studies reporting positive effects	Probability of an equal or greater percentage of positive results from an ineffective treatment	Random effects meta-analysis results
Early treatment	27	32	84.4%	1 in 18 thousand	63% improvement RR 0.37 [0.28‑0.47] p < 0.0001
Late treatment	27	33	81.8%	1 in 6 thousand	42% improvement RR 0.58 [0.45‑0.75] p < 0.0001
Prophylaxis	16	16	100%	1 in 66 thousand	83% improvement RR 0.17 [0.11‑0.26] p < 0.0001
All studies	70	81	86.4%	1 in 169 billion	65% improvement RR 0.35 [0.29‑0.44] p < 0.0001

Considering ivermectin (IVM from now on) is very cheap and the side effects are pretty mild when they even happen, which is rarely, I'd say that yes, it's definitely better than placebo.

In the very study we're discussing, it's also seen that IVM, compared to placebo is:

-35.3% more effective in virus clearance at day 3 (And that is the real benefit of IVM, as shown by other studies - It somehow greatly delays the virus spread in the body/helps the initial phase of immunity system's containment, and which is why I personally recommend taking it on the onset of symptoms, or as prophylaxis, only in case of direct contact with a suspect case)
-14.2% more effective in virus clearance at day 7.

The physician who treated me when I got sick in March/2021 is an infectologist, and he is actually a former secretary of health for my state. He has treated over 10k cases of CoViD-19, some using IVM, some not (in association with zinc + vitamin D - 50k UI, when used), and his anecdotal experience is that IVM does make a significant difference.

I favor IVM because it's cheap, with little to no side effects and a proven positive net gain compared to nothing.

And finally, here is an excerpt of one of this study's authors²:

I don’t understand the psychology of the ivermectin advocates. They fail to see the positive in this study and just focus on it not being overwhelmingly positive. I actually think it is quite positive.

I presented this a couple weeks ago at the NIH Collaboratory Rounds and, if they listened, I advocate that actually, there is a clear signal that IVM works in COVID patients, just that our study didn’t achieve significance.

References:
1 - https://ivmmeta.com/
2 - https://stevekirsch.substack.com/p/did-the-together-study-show-that

 

[Dr_Faustus]

Oh I don't know, I heard this professional called Dr. Dewormer tell me otherwise and that I should if anything double my treatment!

For those who know what I am referencing, good on you.

 

[Purple_Shyguy]

Isn't this study completely flawed from the outset as it's only looking for reductions in hospitalisations?

Is that even why people took Ivermectin?
I thought you took it to feel less shit.

Like, if you have the flu you'll have some chicken soup to feel less shit. You'll have some aspirin and drink water to feel less shit.

If you're in bed with COVID and feel like shit then take some ivermectin. And you'll feel less shit.

It seems like a study that's only looking for reductions in hospitalisations is purposely misleading.

 

[tabzer]

Guy, you are going against the narrative. Everyone knows that Pfizer is the most trusted of household names since 2020. It has the full backing of the US $.

 

[lolcatzuru]

I'm aware, that's why mask requirements were typically paired with social distancing. Masks don't completely stop sneezes or coughs from getting out, but they do reduce the overall distance that the particulates move by quite a bit.


Malone is a grifter, so he's pretty typical guest material for Rogan in that sense. Says he had a hand in creating the MRNA vaccines, but the rest of the medical community denies this, and he certainly doesn't have any receipts to prove it.

well his name is on the patents, but hey thats totally fine with me, lets lock up everyone who pushed the vaccine if some renegade helped make them, similarly, lets lock up anyone whos ever worked with/for him and anyone whos used data he's published. I dont know ifi would use the rest of the medical community as accurate tbh given the current state of the country.

 

[lolcatzuru]

It seems to me that the evidence for Ivermectin is more clear (not great just more clear) than the evidence for most masks that aren't N95, yet look at the entirely different stances that have been taken for the last couple years. On the one hand, something is better than nothing and on the other lol horse dewormer. Wouldn't you rather vulnerable people have that extra 10% chance than not?

well thats the data THEY WERE GIVEN, which doesnt have to represent the actual data.

 

[lolcatzuru]

Isn't this study completely flawed from the outset as it's only looking for reductions in hospitalisations?

Is that even why people took Ivermectin?
I thought you took it to feel less shit.

Like, if you have the flu you'll have some chicken soup to feel less shit. You'll have some aspirin and drink water to feel less shit.

If you're in bed with COVID and feel like shit then take some ivermectin. And you'll feel less shit.

It seems like a study that's only looking for reductions in hospitalisations is purposely misleading.

yes this is true to quote mcollough, who i have a feeling the other guy will call another " grifter" ( who is the most published person in his field) " ivermectin ( and the appropriate supplements" have to be taken BEFORE they get to the hospital and BEFORE they need to be on a vent, because if and when that happens it is too late". An example is rogan himself, he tookl it when prescribed by a doctor before he really had any major symptoms and it magically went away, idk how that happened considering it doesnt work but thats how it happened.

 

[subcon959]

yes this is true to quote mcollough, who i have a feeling the other guy will call another " grifter" ( who is the most published person in his field) " ivermectin ( and the appropriate supplements" have to be taken BEFORE they get to the hospital and BEFORE they need to be on a vent, because if and when that happens it is too late". An example is rogan himself, he tookl it when prescribed by a doctor before he really had any major symptoms and it magically went away, idk how that happened considering it doesnt work but thats how it happened.

To be fair, even Joe Rogan said that he thinks it was the monoclonal antibodies that did most of the benefit and he's not sure if Ivermectin really did anything. But it still worked as a combination and there's no harm as long as it's prescribed by a doctor.

 

[lolcatzuru]

To be fair, even Joe Rogan said that he thinks it was the monoclonal antibodies that did most of the benefit and he's not sure if Ivermectin really did anything. But it still worked as a combination and there's no harm as long as it's prescribed by a doctor.

well this of course leads us to the crux of the issue, they are lying and saying it doesnt work so the can market the vaccine and soon the anti covid pills.

 

[subcon959]

well this of course leads us to the crux of the issue, they are lying and saying it doesnt work so the can market the vaccine and soon the anti covid pills.

It's a strange position though, because there's no reason for people to not be allowed to do both for maximum benefit. If I was rich I would've taken the kitchen sink approach instead of just hoping the vaccine was enough.

 

[Xzi]

Considering ivermectin (IVM from now on) is very cheap and the side effects are pretty mild when they even happen, which is rarely, I'd say that yes, it's definitely better than placebo.

Vaccines are free and come with even fewer possible side effects attached. Again, I don't understand the insistence on continuing to dig for poor substitutes. Even in terms of post-infection treatments we've now got multiple options which are far better available. Ivermectin existed long before COVID-19, so naturally it wasn't designed with this virus in mind. Other treatments like the soon to be released COVID-19 pill were specifically designed to fight it off.

Guy, you are going against the narrative. Everyone knows that Pfizer is the most trusted of household names since 2020. It has the full backing of the US $.

Are you under the false impression that Ivermectin was created by a local co-op using a profit-sharing model? Your paranoid delusions would make at least a little more sense if they applied to the entirety of big pharma, and not one specific brand. A lot of people on TV and podcasts made a whole lot of money from the rush on Ivermectin. A lot of those same people were selling "bone broth" and "masculinity pills" before the pandemic started.