My view on religion.

  • Thread starter Deleted User
  • Start date
  • Views 19,574
  • Replies 240

Jiggah

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2002
Messages
1,223
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
279
Country
United States
It's easy to just say "morality is derived from religion," but seriously take a look at all the religious texts. They all have contradictory moral values, which is something people always seem to want to avoid. The fact that we as a society have to decide what is the real moral value in those contradictions already shows that morality is outside the limits of religion. Therefore, morality is not something religion has created nor is it necessary to have religion to be moral. Also, the term "survival of the fittest" is a misnomer to what Evolution is all about. Evolution is not about "survival of the fittest," it's about survival of a population who are best adapted to their environment over time. It would be easy to say, we have morality because as the human population, we need more than a single individual to survive thus it would be beneficial for us to be good to our neighbors whether they are extremely healthy or they are blind and meek because we need the genetic diversity.

The fact that there are different religions is only ingored because it is irrelevant. Applying logic and reason to different religious doctrines to determine their credibility - and analysing them by the principle of non-contradiction - are perfectly good enterprises. However, the gist of this thread has been about establishing the logic basis for religion itself. If many are not even willing to entertain that religious thought in general is reasonable, the prospect of debating individual religions is absurd. - If one does not accept the existence of God, why argue about which idea of God is more correct?

It also seems weird to bring in evolution here, but the mechanism of evolution is natural selection - which is basically "survival of the fittest" in the reproductive sense. Obviously this doesn't have to mean chaotic fighting for survival.

The idea of God being outside our realm works against religion. If God is really outside our realm of understanding, what makes religion the answer to understanding God? How can any religion make the claim that they are the one true religion, if they lack the understanding of this God. The most both sides (science and the different religions) can say is that they don't know what or who God is and therefore religions and their texts have no relevancy to God. So, we should just ignore having religions anyway.

The definition of God is an infinite being. Man is a finite being. Thus, it's absurd to expect man to be able to fully comprehend God. This does not mean that man cannot grasp anything about God, or that some such thoughts might be more correct than others. Nor does it make the idea of a single religion being correct absurd - such religion would merely need to be on the correct side of any positions wherein other religions differed.

Furthermore, imagine a religion that proclaims "our doctrine is not any more true than any other religion". Such a religion would have declared itself irrelevant. Clearly, the religion that claims to hold the truth is at least starting from a more logical position.

The first part has nothing to do with God at all. In fact, it has to do with the idea of morality based solely on religion...if there's no religion we'd all be beating each other and raping women that was the claim I was responding to. Morality is not religiously based as many want to claim. If we are going to apply logic and reason to the religious doctrine, we might as well apply it to the religion itself, right. The problem here is that religions blanket themselves in their texts. The Bible/Koran/Torah/etc. says this is true so it must be true.

How do you know he's a infinite being? You've just made that claim of understanding of what or who he is, that he's infinite. How do you know he isn't some weird alien being from galaxy X? This seems to be extremely illogical that you would make a claim of understanding God to say that we can't understand him.

One religion that claims to hold the truth would seem logical, if that religion could bring forth concrete evidence of that claim. No one religion has yet, hence why we have conflicting religions, in fact it's so conflicting, we have different sects within different religions.
 

cruddybuddy

Group: Banned!
Banned
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
Messages
2,863
Trophies
0
Age
45
Location
California
Website
varpness.com
XP
171
Country
United States
@cruddybuddy, so your only answer to the question of god is that it is too great for us to understand?

No, I said that some people get it; to others it doesn't make sense. Even a 2-D goomba gets a glimpse of Paper Mario every once in a while... right before it gets it's cranium inverted of course.

@Dirtie: Thank you for the compliment. See, proof for the existence of God was in Super Paper Mario all along. Humanity just needed to wait until we were ready for it.
 

serious_sean

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
246
Trophies
0
Age
41
Website
Visit site
XP
142
Country
United States
the paper mario analogy is valid, but it still doesn't mean that god exists.

i'm not saying that it's true, but extra-dimensional beings could have created humankind and the world. But these beings, like humans, would have had to arise from natural selection.

omnipotent, omniscient, all-loving gods cannot exist because they themselves are logical impossibilities. If you choose to define god as something else, like the wonder that fills each of us when we gaze up at a starry sky, then we can find god anywhere.

Of course, this type of god is different than the sky faerie of organized religions.

Lastly, I'm not trying to offend anyone, and I'm sorry if anyone is hurt by what I'm saying. I simply find this exasperating.
If you are on the fence about all of this, try reading the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. It can help to view religion from a scientific point of view.
 
D

Deleted User

Guest
OP
Taken from: Xenu - Wikipedia
In Scientology doctrine, Xenu (also Xemu), pronounced /'zi.nu/, was the dictator of the "Galactic Confederacy" who, 75 million years ago, brought billions of aliens to Earth in DC-8-like spacecraft, stacked them around volcanoes and blew them up with hydrogen bombs. Their souls then clustered together and stuck to the bodies of the living, and continue to wreak chaos and havoc today.

When I say bullshit, I mean it's nonsense to me.  It just bewilders me how you can bring yourself to truly believe these ... teachings.  Because if anything sounds like nonsense, it's Scientology.  It sticks out like a sore thumb to me.  Where did Hubbard come up with this stuff?  Was he contacted by these aliens?  And don't you think it's a little strange that he was a Science Fiction writer?



I don't see how that leap of faith is any more nonsensical than the ones you're supposed to take in other religions.



That's what I've been saying all along though. It's AS nonsensical as any religion ... invisible people that read my thoughts or holy elephants. I just haven't used the word BS ... but all religion is just BS to me! I can stray from religion and also get into psychics, astrology, ghosts, stigmata, alien abductions, big foot, telekinesis, etc. BS, BS, BS, BS, BS.

QUOTE(Bowser128 @ Apr 18 2007, 04:20 PM)You know what I absolutely hate hearing?
When people say "The universe had to be created by something, it couldn't have started on its own, everything has to have a creator, so it must have been God."
Fair enough, if that's the view of the religious people, the logical question for me to ask then is: who created god? The usual (blind) response is "Oh, that's different, those rules don't apply to God."
What a load of rubbish, you can't just decide there's some universally infallible rule, that suddenly becomes fallible whenever you deem it necessary.

When I ask that question ... I get a cryptic response like"God has always been and always will be" ... whatever that means.

Oh, and about the whole Paper Mario analogy ... yeah, I agree that there can be extra dimensions that we just aren't able to see. A god CAN exist. A purple invisible unicorn can also be a god. Just because there CAN be a god, doesn't mean there IS a god. I can say that a purple invisible unicorn made the whole universe. He is totally undetectable and loves all of you. Maybe THAT'S the true god! It comes down to believing what's more likely and more sensible. No proof of god has ever come up, which is why I don't believe in god. It's normal to think that way. If you believe a god exists, why did you quickly choose the Christian god when there are plenty of other religions out there to choose from? The most likely answer is that you were brought up with a certain religion. What makes the christian god any more likely to be a god over Zeus or Brahma? There are many religions out there ... what makes you think yours is any different from the rest? Is it really hard to believe that the religion your follow is just as synthetic as any other? Christians have their own testimonies, fine. A Christian would say they feel the holy spirit and were blessed when praying to God. But I know Buddhists who say they've been blessed with good fortune after praying to Buddha. So what's going on here? And this is just taking two religions for an example. It shows that people have the ability to think certain things are happening when they really aren't, assuming nobody is lying. What makes you so sure that you're not fooling yourself?
 
L

lastdual

Guest
OP
The first part has nothing to do with God at all.  In fact, it has to do with the idea of morality based solely on religion...if there's no religion we'd all be beating each other and raping women that was the claim I was responding to.  Morality is not religiously based as many want to claim....

Ung... we seem to be thinking on different levels here.

Look, the concept of "morality" implies that man is supposed to live a certain way. But why should man live one way rather than another? Why should it even matter whether the human race continues to exist or not? You cannot answer those questions without appealing to a meaning behind existence...in other words, a religion.

Religion provides the foundation, the "why" for values.

Also, no one is implying that atheist do not live by values.... Please see my posts on the previous page for further explanation. (particularly the one that starts "I think some are misinterpreting the logic here.")

How do you know he's a infinite being?  You've just made that claim of understand what or who he is, he's infinite.  How do you know he isn't some weird alien being from galaxy X?  This seems to be extremely illogical that you would make a claim of understand God to say that we can't understand him.

We're talking about concepts here. The word "God" has a definition. These differ between the Western and Eastern traditions (God as Person vs God as Force), but we've mainly been discussing the Western sense of the word, by which God is defined as an infinite being in all positive respects.

So I "know" because that's what the word means. The same way I "know" a triangle has exactly 3 corners - because that's part of the concept's definition. We're not talking about whether I "know" that God created us or even exists, that's another matter (again the question of existence vs essence, both positions may logically be held, but please at least understand the implications of them...).

@aslacker55 VV - Science does not say "something must have created God". There is no conflict between God and science. Science is the study of the laws by which the universe operates. It says nothing about whether those laws were the fruit of a supernatural being or not. Moreover, if such a being exists, it's logical to assume said being has power over the laws it authored.
 

aslacker55

I like pie
Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Messages
631
Trophies
0
Location
So Cal
Website
Visit site
XP
238
Country
United States
I just want to ask you guys to think about what I'm about to say. No flaming

God created everything, but according to science something must also have created God, but if that was true then something created the entity that created God. And so on and so on, but according to science something can't come from nothing. There has to have been a beginning to all of this or we would not be here, but that would also mean that the entity that started all of this must be beyond the rule of science. That entity is what most people call the Creator (GOD), in my opinion.
 
K

kaoken

Guest
OP
I just want to ask you guys to think about what I'm about to say. No flaming

God created everything, but according to science something must also have created God, but if that was true then something created the entity that created God. And so on and so on, but according to science something can't come from nothing. There has to have been a beginning to all of this or we would not be here, but that would also mean that the entity that started all of this must be beyond the rule of science. That entity is what most people call the Creator (GOD), in my opinion.

According to your logic, I can also say that there is a random event beyond the rule of science that caused the beginning.
 

Jiggah

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2002
Messages
1,223
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
279
Country
United States
The first part has nothing to do with God at all. In fact, it has to do with the idea of morality based solely on religion...if there's no religion we'd all be beating each other and raping women that was the claim I was responding to. Morality is not religiously based as many want to claim....

Ung... we seem to be thinking on different levels here.

Look, the concept of "morality" implies that man is supposed to live a certain way. But why should man live one way rather than another? Why should it even matter whether the human race continues to exist or not? You cannot answer those questions without appealing to a meaning behind existence...in other words, a religion.

Religion provides the foundation, the "why" for values.

Also, no one is implying that atheist do not live by values.... Please see my posts on the previous page for further explanation. (particularly the one that starts "I think some are misinterpreting the logic here.")

How do you know he's a infinite being? You've just made that claim of understand what or who he is, he's infinite. How do you know he isn't some weird alien being from galaxy X? This seems to be extremely illogical that you would make a claim of understand God to say that we can't understand him.

We're talking about concepts here. The word "God" has a definition. These differ between the Western and Eastern traditions (God as Person vs God as Force), but we've mainly been discussing the Western sense of the word, by which God is defined as an infinite being in all positive respects.

So I "know" because that's what the word means. The same way I "know" a triangle has exactly 3 corners - because that's part of the concept's definition. We're not talking about whether I "know" that God created us or even exists, that's another matter (again the question of existence vs essence, both positions may logically be held, but please at least understand the implications of them...).

Again, religion would be a really bad foundation for the "why" of values. The contradictions in many religions themselves give the reason why this is a bad way to live. Also, this doesn't explain the "why" for other animals' altruistic behaviors, who clearly have no religion whatsoever.

I think as someone posted earlier, we aren't just talking about the concept of an infinite being. We are talking about an infinite being by definition that loves everyone, everything, and knows all. Which as they point out is a logical impossibility?

If there is a God. As a scientist, you should be asking where did he come from? You wouldn't just say "okay, well he's there, no need to ask anything about him" or "well, he's outside our range of understanding, so let's no even try." In science, nothing not even God should be outside the realm of questioning.
 

aslacker55

I like pie
Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Messages
631
Trophies
0
Location
So Cal
Website
Visit site
XP
238
Country
United States
I just want to ask you guys to think about what I'm about to say. No flaming

God created everything, but according to science something must also have created God, but if that was true then something created the entity that created God. And so on and so on, but according to science something can't come from nothing. There has to have been a beginning to all of this or we would not be here, but that would also mean that the entity that started all of this must be beyond the rule of science. That entity is what most people call the Creator (GOD), in my opinion.


According to your logic, I can also say that there is a random event beyond the rule of science that caused the beginning.

Yup, it could have been an event, but it could also be an entity. We just don't know. It all comes down to blind faith. Do you have it or not.
 

Dirtie

:'D
Former Staff
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
3,705
Trophies
1
Location
Zealer
XP
405
Country
New Zealand
Jiggah, I think if you want to argue that angle, it comes down to conscience. The point is your conscience has to originate from somewhere. Evolutionists would likely say that it is defined by your upbringing and environment. Christians would likely say that it is given to us by God (many believe conscience to be the voice of God himself). Therefore you reach a impasse (a deadlock).
 

Jiggah

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2002
Messages
1,223
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
279
Country
United States
I just want to ask you guys to think about what I'm about to say. No flaming

God created everything, but according to science something must also have created God, but if that was true then something created the entity that created God. And so on and so on, but according to science something can't come from nothing. There has to have been a beginning to all of this or we would not be here, but that would also mean that the entity that started all of this must be beyond the rule of science. That entity is what most people call the Creator (GOD), in my opinion.


According to your logic, I can also say that there is a random event beyond the rule of science that caused the beginning.

Yup, it could have been an event, but it could also be an entity. We just don't know. It all comes down to blind faith. Do you have it or you don't.

Last I recalled, those with blind faith were called fundamentalists.
 
L

lastdual

Guest
OP
Again, religion would be a really bad foundation for the "why" of values.  The contradictions in many religions themselves give the reason why this is a bad way to live.  Also, this doesn't explain the "why" for other animals' altruistic behaviors, who clearly have no religion whatsoever.

I think as someone posted earlier, we aren't just talking about the concept of an infinite being.  We are talking about an infinite being by definition that loves everyone, everything, and knows all.  Which as they point out is a logical impossibility?


We're still thinking on different levels. I'm debating religious thought itself. If there is any "why" at all behind existence (as in a purpose we are meant to fulfill), the attempt to explain that "why" constitutes religion.

Your talk of contradictions implies that you're thinking of a particular religion. Honestly, I'm not an expert on every religion, and if you feel there are contradictions within a certain religion, then the intellectually honest thing to do would be to seek a professional representative of that religion, skilled in exegisis and apologetics, and determine whether said contradictions are a matter of your interpretation or an actual flaw in the logic of that religion's doctrine.

To say "a being that loves everyone, everything, and knows all" or "a being infinite in all positive respects" is basically to say the same thing... The Western definition of God comprises three central dimensions of perfection: the perfection of power (omnipotence), the perfection of intellect (omniscience), and the perfection of will (love). The existence of such an infinite being may be a matter of faith, but it is not a "logical impossibility" by any means. The classic Greek philosophers who basically framed our concept of the word "logic" certainly didn't think so.

If there is a God.  As a scientist, you should be asking where did he come from?

Honestly, if someone can't understand that by definition of the concept, God precedes all else, such a person doesn't have the mind to be a scientist. Grasping basic thought concepts is essential to most scientific endeavors.

In any case, must sleep...
 

Legend

.missing
Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2003
Messages
809
Trophies
0
Age
36
Location
Valhalla
XP
391
Country
Canada
Eh wow.
This shit is still continuing. Surprised that a mod hasn't shut this down yet... Though I must give kudos to everyone for SEEMING to remain civil...
 

Azimuth

Chicken Teriyaki Boy!
Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
637
Trophies
0
Website
Visit site
XP
110
Country
Canada
Honestly, if someone can't understand that by definition of the concept, God precedes all else, such a person doesn't have the mind to be a scientist. Grasping basic thought concepts is essential to most scientific endeavors.

In any case, must sleep...

looks like your just side stepping questions and arguments by declaring god above question or thought, seems to be a common theme in this thread.
 

ediblebird

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
313
Trophies
0
XP
267
Country
Instead of listening solely to what your church tells you, assess your own beliefs, educate yourself, and make up your own mind.

This is exactly right, dont be a sheep, If a priest or whoever says something, check it out, thoroughly. After you have done that then come to a decision. Too many people have the habit of taking other peoples word for truth.
lecture.gif
 

Dirtie

:'D
Former Staff
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
3,705
Trophies
1
Location
Zealer
XP
405
Country
New Zealand
Honestly, if someone can't understand that by definition of the concept, God precedes all else, such a person doesn't have the mind to be a scientist. Grasping basic thought concepts is essential to most scientific endeavors.

In any case, must sleep...


looks like your just side stepping questions and arguments by declaring god above question or thought, seems to be a common theme in this thread.
Are you sure? Because lastdual has some of the most well formed and logical arguments in this thread. You're also missing the point I think - maybe it is you that is sidestepping the argument?
wink.gif


It is getting close to personal attacks however (lastdual may have provoked it with his last comment) - keep it civil
lecture.gif
 

serious_sean

Well-Known Member
Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2005
Messages
246
Trophies
0
Age
41
Website
Visit site
XP
142
Country
United States
Are you sure? Because lastdual has some of the most well formed and logical arguments in this thread. You're also missing the point I think - maybe it is you that is sidestepping the argument?
wink.gif


It is getting close to personal attacks however (lastdual may have provoked it with his last comment) - keep it civilÂ
lecture.gif

This is a logical fallacy; appeal to authority. Just because someone has informed opinions on one thing doesn't make him right. Using god as an excuse for ignorance is side-stepping any responsibility to learn.

If history is any indication, many things that are now attributed to god ( the origin of life on Earth, for example ) will be scientifically discovered and documented, just like the origin of species. Another section of the holy books will go from literal to allegorical.

With every passing day, god runs out of places to hide. It's almost as if he weren't there at all...
ohmy.gif
 

Dirtie

:'D
Former Staff
Joined
Sep 9, 2003
Messages
3,705
Trophies
1
Location
Zealer
XP
405
Country
New Zealand
Did you even read his posts?
tongue.gif



Anyway, I'm staying out of this now, it seems like it's taking a downward turn - it usually isn't long until people voice their opinion in a not-so-nice way (indeed, as certain people have already). Previous threads dealing with religion on this board have all been shut down a lot faster than this one has been left to run.

Also, a forum that deals mainly with the subject of piracy is inherently going to attract more people with a certain opinion, than those with another, if you know what I mean.
 

Site & Scene News

Popular threads in this forum

General chit-chat
Help Users
    K3Nv2 @ K3Nv2: Thought I saw my ex on that new kingdom of the Apes poster