My view on religion.

[mthrnite]

Locking down in the next couple of pages, so try real hard to sum it up, k?
mthr

By all means, end the thread if you want, but I think this particular debate isn't one that will be forever solved by a few members of GBATemp.

C'mon guys, work it! I'm expecting a definitive answer on the whole God/no God/which God question, and I want it on my desk by tomorrow at 7 am.

..and guys I want to see some footprints in the sand on this one!


Seriously though, I've decided to keep the thread open as long as you guys stay civil and respectful toward/of each other.

Remember, the devil's in the details.

Onward through the fog, soldiers!

 

[jtroye32]

well i'm supposed to be a christian. but if "God" loves his children so much why would he make his children suffer over some bet with satan. a father should not bet his children like pawns. also heaven is supposed to be a divine place with no war/arguments... so why does satan even exist?

 

[Veho]

I grow weary of this thread...
.. you cats need to find a bar.


.. a juice bar even.

Is there one at the hotel?

Well, there's the minibar

But I think Frank the rabbit spider monkey ate all the peanuts.

 

[shaffaaf27]

its for a test for faith....its like if you bring up 2 animals and one decides to bite you in the hand, you would want it near you would you?

so the earth is a test

 

[mthrnite]

its for a test for faith....its like if you bring up 2 animals and one decides to bite you in the hand, you would want it near you would you?

so the earth is a test

So the earth is the testing area...
.. who's the moderator? Not me I hope, I've already got my hands full.

Seriously, I have a hard time with the whole "I will be invisible to you so that you can choose to be faithful" thing. In my opinion, if God was worth his salt, he'd pop in every once in a while and say, "Hey guys, I exist!" and give everybody a legitimate choice. And by "once in a while" I don't mean every 2000 years. Really how hard would it be. Feeling his presence just isn't enough, do something, anything that can't easily be brushed away as a feeling. Sometimes I think somebody's behind me, and I turn around and there's somebody there, sometimes there isn't, feelings are deceptive that way, you either know or you don't, and knowing means experiencing with our senses. So God just needs to do something tangible and concrete. I don't need a fuzzy transparent God. If he's truly "all that" he'd be able to end the confusion pretty quick, and without a ton of people going to hell because they didn't trust their "feelings" as fact. I mean hey, Jesus let Thomas feel his wound, and didn't condemn him to hell for doubting. That's all I'm talkin' about. Even Jesus the historical figure is elusive. From what I've read anyway, the only historical records of him come from the Christians, and nobody else of note has any records of his existence at all. Fuzzy... and it's hard to take a devoutly religious person's word for anything, because they have a vested interest in their "truth". So until something of substance happens, I'll just go about my way and not think about it too much.

 

[Azimuth]

Some "notes" on the video, tackled these questions he proposes and his ayahs. I found some errors and some obvious word twisting to get his point across.

-Hijab is not mentioned at all in the quran, and was briefly mentioned in hadith, but as we know hadith isn't 100% accurate since anyone could contribute to it. And as usual it got swept into mainstream religion by the fanatics.

-After he mentions that the big bang was depicted in the quran,
"Walam yara allathina kafaru ina al samawati wal ard kanta rutkin fa3ataqnahum"

literally: for those non-believers who do not see that the sky(heavens) and the earth where joined until we seperated them.

I don't know how this proves the quran had big bang theory but obviously this guy speaks arabic better than me.... except that he doesnt. This could be referring to the creation of earth only, since the surah goes on to talk about how life is arising in the seas.

-His moon reflection theory really amused me, it all hangs upon the word moonir in the last sentence of the verse. If you take this in context it means gleaming or shining moon(lit moon), moonawar for example just means lit up and has absolutely nothing to do with the moon.

He keeps saying the quran contained the information already, then why didn't you figure it out before science, see the contradiction here? The same thing he bashes is the thing his whole argument is based on.

I hope I proved to you that just because someone quotes the quran it doesn't mean he is interpreting it correctly, there are thousands of varying opinions and making your own differentiates you from the other sheep simply following without thinking.

As far as the ex-muslim thing is concerned, Im sure that I ,a non-believer, know more about islam then you do. Again, Memorizing and reciting are meaningless if you don't understand what you are saying.

I hope you can argue with facts and reason, ill be doing the rest later, i dont have time for it now.

 

[Sneakz]

"As far as the ex-muslim thing is concerned, Im sure that I ,a non-believer, know more about islam then you do."

That, right there bothers me a lot, you don't even know anything about me. not even my name BUT you believe that your better then me. Your being so ignorant its off the charts. Seriously I just joined this topic to say my point of view, not to be insulted by someone who believes hes greater then me.

"I don't know how this proves the quran had big bang theory but obviously this guy speaks arabic better than me.... except that he doesnt."

Same thing for that which is even worse then assuming your better then me. Saying someone who's life revolves around Quran and religion and has probably been studying the Quran for 40 years or so knows less Arabic then you is just disgusting but maybe that "except that he doesn't" part was just a typo?


Being an X-Muslim I thought you would know why we memorize the Quran with out learning It's meaning. One is to first worry about earning the Arabic tongue, so that you don't F' up the pronunciation and 2 You haven't forgotten how to pray have you? You remember having to recite 2 surats one being Fatiha and the other being of your choice for the first 2 rakkah's? So obviously you would first memorize a couple surats so you can start praying. While i was at Dugsi we were slowly taught Arabic so that we could understand the language. any of the Arab born students need this but there were others (such as myself) Who never had Arabic as there mother tongue.

Also the Hijab thing

Surah an-Nur ayah 31 states:

And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful

The word Hijab may not be mentioned but khim?r is. (They both mean the samething)

Nice twist on words there, nice try but try harder

Also The Hadith being not 100% true, well your not wrong but your not right either. Being an X-Muslim you must have taken some History Seerah and Hadith classes before right? So then you would know what tests a Hadith must undertake to proven Hassan or better (Good).

I dont want to say it wrong, but Ill try my best. Dont take my words for being 100% accurate. The sources of where the writer got the hadith from is tracked, and the history of that person is checked if he is known to be a liar. For eg) The Prophet said who was heard by blank who told blank who told blank who told blank who told the writer. All of the people ( the blanks) History would be checked and If they were a liar or a theif or if a link in the chain is missing then it would not be considered as an authentic Hadith.

Also an Extract from our faithful freinds at Wiki

Some modern Islamic scholars believe that the Qur'an parallels the Big Bang in its account of creation, described as follows: "Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together as one unit of creation, before We clove them asunder?" (Ch:21,Ver:30). The claim has also been made that the Qur'an describes an expanding universe: "The heaven, We have built it with power. And verily, We are expanding it." (Ch:51,Ver:47).[35] Parallels with the Big Crunch and an oscillating universe have also been suggested: "On the day when We will roll up the heavens like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about." (Ch:21,Ver:104).


Seems like something about everything once being one then being released to me ...


Also the moon thing

Sura Al-Furqan 25:61 which says,

Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies,
And placed therein a lamp
And a moon which has reflected light.

I dont really get where you got the word Moonir from ... but none the less Ive brought you proof I haven't edited anything Its all in front of you.

Also to the thing that world never knew this before (or specifically us) of course we knew, don't you know of the Golden age of Islam? Our science and math was once leading the world until we slowly started losing our roots and living our life for greed instead of worship. Also even if we didn't know that proves nothing its already a well known fact that the Quran hasn't been altered for 1400 years so If was written down then thats all that matters. It wasn't possible for them to figure this out back then but yet it was written down.

Dr. Zakir Naik hasn't lied or bent the truth, youve just misunderstood. I'm not gonna start attacking you for the sake of letting this topic run and the fact that I really want to hear what you got to say to this one.


Also I hope you know these facts were just put In there (I'm guessing cause I obviously cant out think God) to prove how authentic the Quran is right? These parts do not really help us in our worship of God but just strengthens or faith.

Also just in case you do go there, being an X-Muslim yourself, you do remember your teacher telling you that our prophet was a Illiterate right? So there's no way he could of wrote this himself.

--

Section for the Mod dude

"So the earth is the testing area...
.. who's the moderator? Not me I hope, I've already got my hands full.

Seriously, I have a hard time with the whole "I will be invisible to you so that you can choose to be faithful" thing. In my opinion, if God was worth his salt, he'd pop in every once in a while and say, "Hey guys, I exist!" and give everybody a legitimate choice. And by "once in a while" I don't mean every 2000 years. Really how hard would it be. Feeling his presence just isn't enough, do something, anything that can't easily be brushed away as a feeling. Sometimes I think somebody's behind me, and I turn around and there's somebody there, sometimes there isn't, feelings are deceptive that way, you either know or you don't, and knowing means experiencing with our senses. So God just needs to do something tangible and concrete. I don't need a fuzzy transparent God. If he's truly "all that" he'd be able to end the confusion pretty quick, and without a ton of people going to hell because they didn't trust their "feelings" as fact. I mean hey, Jesus let Thomas feel his wound, and didn't condemn him to hell for doubting. That's all I'm talkin' about. Even Jesus the historical figure is elusive. From what I've read anyway, the only historical records of him come from the Christians, and nobody else of note has any records of his existence at all. Fuzzy... and it's hard to take a devoutly religious person's word for anything, because they have a vested interest in their "truth". So until something of substance happens, I'll just go about my way and not think about it too much."

lol, If I argue with the mod will i get on his bad side? lol but here we go

umm BTW did you read all the other posts? cause I remember this being answered somewhere else but w/e.

The whole thing about earth as a testing ground is true so why would God want it to be so easy by just you know yelling out to the world "Hey I'm God WORSHIP MEEEE" sort of defeats the purpose of a test doesn't it?

I really don't want to go any farther cause I obviously ain't a Scholar when it comes to this, I really suggest you get pop a visit to your local mosque and ask them a few questions test their minds a bit see if you can out question them, It would be good both ways seeing everyone would walk away with new or reinforced knowledge but I'm pretty sure the members of GBAtemp aren't that great when it comes to religion and posting on message boards about religion wouldn't really be that helpful to you it probably create more topics like this...

Hope that helped

 

[Azimuth]

Seems you are pissed, I can't help the fact that you are offended. But does Naik know Arabic? Really does he? its just a fact that he doesn't. His accent is terrible and seems to be just reciting from memory. I love it when religious peoples faith is questioned and they get all pissed.

1. I don't know if you have ever lived in the middle east,maybe you should to experience the "ideals" of hijab, but hijab plays no role in a womans life and is one of the most argued points in islamic life. I will be looking at the ayah soon. You should also think of this logically, why is it that women must cover and men should not, the great sexist paradox? I was taught that Islam liberated women, that may have been true 1400 years ago but today Islam violates many laws regarding women's freedom.

2. Your argument for just memorizing to learn arabic makes no sense. So just because you can't pronounce a word means you don't have to know what it means, hmm that makes sense. I haven't forgotten to pray, probably never will since it is taught at an early age and like all other things taught when your young it sticks.

3. Hadith is a very inaccurate system, no matter how you 'judge' the accuracy of a hadith in the end it depends on the person who claimed it. For example, a drunk fool on the streets might have heard a truthful hadith but his words will never be counted as truth. Some hadith are clearly wrong, but who is to say that some are more accurate then others. There is no absolute way of determining if a hadith is real and so we must approach and believe these with caution.

4. Golden age of Islam was not a result of the Quran, thats like saying the entire renaissance was due to the bible.

As I mentioned above, you have provided me with all the evidence I need for not believing, you employ the common muslim arguments that I have grown tired of. First you resort to character attacks, then when provided with evidence of false truths you continue to assert that I am the wrong one and that its me who has misunderstood, a common religious tactic, deny it all you want it will not change the truth.

Who has done more here me who has taken the time to personally assess the surahs and provide my feed back on them, or you who simply copy pastes from wikipedia(definitely the most accurate place!).

Once again, the quran has thousands of different interpretations, just because you say your way is the correct one doesn't make it so. Im not here to argue the history of the quran, I am here to argue the words contained within.

Moonir is the last word of the ayah, maybe if you would look at the quran yourself you would have seen that?

I have a huge problem with this mentallity that the quran is the absolute truth, because it dulls peoples urge to question, why must I not question the laws I am forced to live by. You must ask yourself as a true muslim if you would rather be preached to(taking all you hear as absolute truth) or to learn the truth by yourself, this is part of why I became an atheist, not to mention the lack of freedom(to ask questions or make insights) and scare tactics employed by muslims.

Keep em coming

, I love angry religious people!

 

[skullstatue]

Azimuth, I want to ask you some questions. If you don't want to answer them, that's fine. Alright so, what purpose do you believe God intended for you? Now, I know you don't believe in him, but you have been able to refer to the Bible as unicorns and story tales, can you even imagine the purpose? Again, (side-stepped) have you ever read the Bible? What drives you to get up in the morning? How is your soul? My best friend is into Scientology, like you, he believes he has every answer but no one really does. Looking forward to the next sidestep. Goodnight.

 

[mthrnite]

Hiya Sneakz, mod dude here

First off, don't worry about getting on my bad side, I don't really have much of one.

Even though I'm an atheist, I've been through religious training in that I grew up going to a Christian school, and even wanted to be a preacher myself for quite a while. As I mentioned before, my parents were of the same general faith, both Baptist Christians, but had a very different take on how things worked, free will on one side, predestination on the other. I spent a lot of time trying to sort out which was true, and thus read the Bible quite a bit coming up. When I realized there were irreconcilable differences between their views, it showed me that in the end, holy books, while they may be written in stone, lend themselves readily to interpretation. I've looked at other religions besides Christianity, in my quest to find a meaning for "it all" and saw much the same thing as I saw in Christianity, certainty on one level and confusion in the big picture. People who profess basically the same things, fighting and/or killing each other due to the details of their faith.

The way I finally resolved my issues, at least temporarily, was with the realization that the universe is simply here... this is it. This is it. We try to describe it, and break it apart into a zillion pieces, and the universe is still those pieces, and each and every piece is the universe. "This" is "It". Since every piece is a part of the whole, and is the whole, we are able to see the whole in every piece. As above, so below. This fractal nature of the universe allows us to make predictions and prophesies. The sun sets, it rises, the tide ebbs, and it flows. The big bang, and the big crunch, it is but a flower, opening at the start of the day, closing at the end, babies being born, and old people dying. The wave. This is it. Wise men and women see the wave, see the macrocosm, and break it apart, describing it with words, but the word is not the thing, the thing is the thing, so they are doomed to a partial description, and thus open their works to interpretation to fill in the gaps. To describe is to degrade. All descriptions of the "truth", even mine, are folly, but we are human, and that's what we do. If I may quote the fictional Bokonon yet again:

Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand."

Please feel free, my brother, to try to understand, and try to enlighten others if you wish, but do it nicely, and respectfully, and try to envision a monkey trap in the process:

Drill a hole in a coconut, just big enough for a monkey to slip his hand in. Hollow it out and put a piece of candy inside. Chain the whole business to a tree. Wait for a monkey to slip his hand in and try and get the candy. When he makes a fist around the candy, the hole will be too small for his fist to go through. As long as he tries to get the candy, he is stuck. Grab the greedy monkey, and have yourself a nice meal of roast monkey.

What I'm trying to say is... the only way to be free is to let go.

I hope a portion of this makes some sort of sense, but again, I am doomed to fail, just like everyone else, and that's a good thing.

 

[Sneakz]

Woah, Nice Post mod dude, you expressed your point with eaze and no anger thats cool.

I understand what you mean by we are thinking to much and It's just human nature that we want to know more even though there isn't. But i must digress I don't believe that were thinking to much, I can't come to believe that everything is accident that were all here by chance. Its just seems so out of wack.

Also I cant come to believe that were also here with no purpose, just living and then just ending. Can you imagine when you die, that you wont be thinking, you wont remember your past, you wont remember you wont even remember how or when you died! I find that impossible, that cant be the way we end. Everything would be so pointless.

I know I haven't given you much to argue here but yah, that how I feel.

Life would be so pointless and can you really believe everything came about by luck?

Also, check out Islam on your free time, google it, surf the web, w/e as long as you just check it out. All your questions I promise you have been asked before and Islam does not side step questions. If you google the right terms or go on the right sight, I'm sure you can find answers. Also check some of the many Dr.Zakir Videos, he usually focuses on answering common misunderstandings of Islam and reasons to convert.

 

[Sneakz]

Alright Well just do this with let amount of anger then ok? Sorry if it seems I'm pissed, I should be able to respect your opinion with out anger.

0. ... again just because (Im guessing) Your born in an Arab country doesn't mean you have more knowledge then someone who has been studying Islam for most of his life. You've only been studying since the day your parents taught you to your current age, that is like my little brother saying he knows more math then I do, He's obviously wrong and so are you.

But then again you can say this is language and not math right? Well I wasn't born in Canada and English wasn't my first language, yet I know more language then younger brother, who was born in Canada. According to your logic he's suppose to out class me when it comes to understanding English, but he doesn't why? Simply cause I've studied longer then he has, same goes with Dr.Zakir He's studied more then you have when it comes to Islam and Arabic. So saying just because he has an accent he knows less the you is just being ignorant.

1. What does that prove? Nothing, If its in the Quran that it must be followed, You agree that it worked in the past so I wont argue that, but In the future the womens right movements did not happen in the Muslim nations, only in the western nations. When Muslims move to the western countries they are infected my the man made ideals and our told that they are being oppressed by Muslims, It doesn't effect them much but It effects there kids greatly growing up with these Ideals. None the less, none of that matters. Its one of gods orders and it must be followed. I'm not questioning why women instead of men, but I know If a man wearing a hajib saw a scantly dressed woman, his urges would not disappear as it does the other way around -.-

2. Well your right, I don't like that either I rather learn the meaning with or after every Surat, but thats how I was taught so I cant change things now...Or they could just focus on teaching Arabic at a young age so they can learn the meanings with out any need of a English translation.

3. Well I did say it wasn't 100% but do you have a better way of eliminating the good from the bad? Do you really plan on trusting a alcoholic with the words of our Prophet?

4. I cant go back and time and say it was the Quran but you know that there is a high chance of it being the cause.

5. umm i cant argue opinion but, I can say only one of the ayahs were from wiki ... and I looked at multiple Interpretations, there all the same except slight differences such as moon with reflecting light, or moon that is shining.

6. This also opinion but I can argue, there is nothing wrong with arguing or questioning the Quran, It increases faith when the right answers are given.

Don't you remember what Dr.Zakir said? (Not a direct quote) He congratulated atheists for thinking instead of blindly following. He encourages argument because only good questions can get the right answers. Your right about the Quran sometimes dulls the mind of questions, of course it does why would you want to question the word of god? The only thing you can question is the interpretation, but theres not many ways to interpt the same Arabic word.

BTW, can you clarify something? Your not questioning the authenticity of the Arabic words, just how people interpret them right? You just see it as a bunch of meaningless poetry instead of scientific facts right?

Hope you've learned something from this topic, cause I've certainly have.

 

[Bowser128]

Also I cant come to believe that were also here with no purpose, just living and then just ending. Can you imagine when you die, that you wont be thinking, you wont remember your past, you wont remember you wont even remember how or when you died! I find that impossible, that cant be the way we end. Everything would be so pointless.

Can I just ask what you think happens when a plant dies? Most people's answer is likely to be "Nothing, it just decomposes". So what happens when a goldfish dies, is it the same as the plant? Most people's response to that is "Yes". So then there's one more question, what makes our death so different?

I for one, would love if there was some sort of afterlife where we could all be happy for eternity, but just because it would be nice, doesn't mean it's a reality.

 

[Sneakz]

Good point Bowser but we are not plants nor are we animals, were better we can think we can adapt we can invent. We have a mind that doesn't stop thinking. Just one of the many gifts god has given us. I believe that maybe the point in life for that plant is to aid Humans. Same with the fish to help us survive by eating it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that were different and that we shouldn't be compared to plants or animals. Our fates are different and so are our purposes in life and after life.

I know I haven't answered the question vary well, but like I said I'm not a scholar, Im just a dude behind his computer screen. If you want more info please ask someone with greater knowledge, I can only answer to the best of my knowledge.

 

[cruddybuddy]

Wow, I'm impressed with the work many of you put into your essays. I didn't actually read most of them because mthrnite said it best with his analogy to a brick wall. What's amazing to me is, most of you probably spent all of 35 minutes on your research paper that was due last Friday, yet you wrote a response to this thread long enough to make the Bible look like a Nintendo game booklet.

 

[Azimuth]

Thanks for the civil reply.

Womens' rights are a huge issue for me, I have lived in muslim countries all my life. I moved to Canada a year ago from the middle east, so the man-made ideals you speak of are nothing but nonsense, people want to be treated fairly if that means going against god, all the power to them. Why should I have to accept the fact that Islam treats women like crap, women can't marry 4 men, but the opposite is allowed. Women can't go to mosques, women must cover themselves....etc.

I guess violating human rights and being sexist is allowed since god said it is, there must be a greater picture here right? To all those that say hijab is justified, try wearing it for a day and see how you like covering yourself. We should be celebrating our womens beauty not hiding it behind cloth.

I obviously see the quran as just another religious book, It is not scientific fact because they are all just claims, and some of the claims are impossible(miracles and the rest) according to scientific law.

Ohh and you called me arrogant, I remember you generalizing atheists as having no morals, and referring to me as believing in nothing, to that I say:

That, right there bothers me a lot, you don't even know anything about me. not even my name BUT you believe that your better then me. Your being so ignorant its off the charts. Seriously I just joined this topic to say my point of view, not to be insulted by someone who believes hes greater then me.

can you say hypocrite

cheers

Edit: made it a nested quote

 

[spokenrope]

Good point Bowser but we are not plants nor are we animals, were better we can think we can adapt we can invent. We have a mind that doesn't stop thinking. Just one of the many gifts god has given us. I believe that maybe the point in life for that plant is to aid Humans. Same with the fish to help us survive by eating it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that were different and that we shouldn't be compared to plants or animals.

We're not plants, but we are animals.

What's more, non human animals can think and invent and adapt just like we can. Maybe not on the scale that we do, though. Animals can't make atomic bombs, can't level a forest to make condos, can't drive a Hummer 30 miles to work each day...

Hmm...

 

[Sneakz]

Thank you

Seems like everything has been boiled down to women's rights, well ok I see where you might get the idea of hiding beauty is annoying and unfair to you.
But think of it this way. The reasoning behind covering one self up from the sight of men is so that a man does not like you just because of your beauty, as you know beauty plays a big part in love when it really shouldn't. I cant say that I don't care about beauty cause then I would be a hypocrite (caught me off guard once already

)

Then again you said this many-a-times already, why cant they just control then men. Well its actually quite harder really, men are also taught to lower the gaze towards women so yes some precautions are taken, but not everyone is Islamic right? So how do we protect Islamic women from non-Islamic men? The answer then goes back to covering the women.

makes sense no?

Also to the thing about Muslim men allowed to marry multiple women and Women not allowed to go to mosques, the latter is false and the former I have no clue ...

Women are allowed to go but It's not recommended, simply because what if there taking care of young child? They cant leave that at home nor take them to the Mosque because they child would disrupt others prayer. As you know men are forced to go at least once every 3 weeks to Jumu'ah prayer. Women are not but there still allowed to go.

Also the Multiple wives things, I have never really understood but a woman doesn't really have to stick with the husband anyway right?

Also you must have misunderstood me when I said Atheist have no morals, I said with out religion their are no bases to morals, nothing stopping us from using women as tools (Still done in strip clubs...) and blacks as slaves. However that topic has long died and for what reasons, I dont know...

 

[Azimuth]

The mosque argument is somewhat flawed, women and men are not allowed to pray in the same area, and as you stated it is not "recommended" that they come to pray. If you really do believe in womens' rights then allow them to bare the same rights you do, that includes marriage, dress and other general rules.

Since divorce is haram, once a woman is married to a man it is over for her, but a man if unhappy may just remarry(double standard?, YES!)

Hijab should be a choice and not a law as many muslim countries make it out to be.

The only thing stopping me from getting a couple of slaves and totally raping women is...umm..ohh thats right my common decency as a human being, not to mention my rational thoughts and common sense.

A moral atheist is more precious than a moral religious person. The religious persons morals are purely drawn from a fear of retribution, while the atheist has no fear of reprisal and so his belief is purely drawn from genuine feelings of ethics and morals.

Just a small question, no harm intended, but do you think shariah law should be applied as national law, or are you all for secular nations?

 

[Sneakz]

Of course Women and Men cant pray together (They can in same room but Woman must stand behind the men) Seriously the Men and Women might get distracted instead of praying to god. Also about the standing behind, if it were the other way around ... guess where the men in front would be staring at? The back sides of the women in front.

Divorce isn't haram. Women can divorce if they feel like, but yeah its a bit harder since they have to either get permission from the husband or they can appeal to a judge and prove that the man is an ass.

Your right about your conscience would stop you, but not everyone is like that, some might think its right but If they were Islamic they'd know that they'd be committing a great sin and might go to hell for it.

Well yeah but fear is alot more powerful and not everyone starts off with good morals...

Well I'd obviously have see what would happen if the shariah law is applied to a nation that is not 100% Islamic. But I believe it would yield great results in crime. So yeah I'd like to see it applied, but most of the laws would only work if everyone is a Muslim...