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Romney vs. Obama

who will/would you vote for?

  • Barack Obama

    Votes: 158 76.0%
  • Mitt Romney

    Votes: 50 24.0%

  • Total voters
    208
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LightyKD

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Just wanted to share these two videos with you all. They come from the Joe Biden campaign speech my Wife and I went to this past Monday. We even had a five song concert from John Mellencamp! The whole event was full of energy and just downright fun!


John Mellncamp singing "Life Goes On" at the event


Vice President Joe Biden speaking at the event
 
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Deleted-185407

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Since the question I posed is "not answerable" because moral views of today are different from those of the past, let me re-frame my question under the context of the moral views of today:

IF a state in present-day America has a law sanctioning slavery, supported by the majority of citizens in that state. The federal government steps in and strikes down that law. Did the federal government do the wrong thing intervening the slavery issue, in 2012?

A hypothetical question, and one that I'm hoping would be more "answerable".

The reason I keep using the slavery example is because it's a clear example with few confounding factors. It's easier to expose the flaws in our own reasoning with clear examples, because we're not distracted by other confounding variables at the same time when we're trying to pick apart the arguments that matter. I'm trying to help you see the flaw in your reasoning, and I need you to work with me.
The question still isn't answerable because you're trying to force a dark age concept into the modern era. The "flaw" you're trying to point out, if it does exist, is the exact same "flaw" for having a federal government take control over everything.

Therefore, your argument is not valid, as it doesn't provide any reason why a federal government is far superior over letting states take control of their issues. In the hypotheticals I presented, they show realistic scenarios as to why a federal government dictating social issues is a disastrous thing. The federal government is banning the use of harmless drugs. The federal government did try to introduce SOPA and other spying legislation. The federal government did pass the NDAA which allows the killing of innocent US civilians at the president's order.

However, if we let the states decide how to take control of things, several states could much more easily reject those horrendous laws for the benefit of their community. On the other hand, if the federal government had full control, they'd have to struggle to abolish all of these ridiculous laws. Of course you're going to have the oddball states that might do something silly (though they're not going to re-introduce slavery, dark age concept after all), but you're suggesting that the federal government isn't capable of making the same mistakes, when recent history has proven that they're far more idiotic than the local state governments.

If your argument can be flipped around so easily, it's not a valid argument.
 

retKHAAAN

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Just thought I'd leave this here...

tumblr_md78wsJLNb1r6rpr4o1_500.jpg
 

Sterling

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I know zero people in Texas that wants a return to slavery. Absolutely zero. I'm sick of people suggesting that people would be willing to go back at the drop of a hat. It's insulting to say the least. Please, stop making these comparisons.
 

retKHAAAN

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I know zero people in Texas that wants a return to slavery. Absolutely zero. I'm sick of people suggesting that people would be willing to go back at the drop of a hat. It's insulting to say the least. Please, stop making these comparisons.

Except, despite slavery being the example, it isn't about slavery. It's about "conservativism" and where it's most prevelant...

What I get from that image isn't that red states are full of rednecks, it's that the most densely populated areas in the country (with the exception of Texas for some reason...) seem to be the most liberal and tolerant. Is that a correlation you're not seeing?
 

Sterling

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Except, despite slavery being the example, it isn't about slavery. It's about "conservativism" and where it's most prevelant...

What I get from that image isn't that red states are full of rednecks, it's that the most densely populated areas in the country (with the exception of Texas for some reason...) seem to be the most liberal and tolerant. Is that a correlation you're not seeing?
That's not the idea picture conveys. I think you need a new one that doesn't sensationalize conservatives as racist bigots.
 

retKHAAAN

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That's not the idea picture conveys. I think you need a new one that doesn't sensationalize conservatives as racist bigots.

wait, so you're saying conservatives aren't racial bigots?

and before you rage...I'm kidding...


but seriously though, is there something in that picture that's inaccurate? is there no correlation there? purely coincedence then, huh?
 

MelodieOctavia

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wait, so you're saying conservatives aren't racial bigots?

and before you rage...I'm kidding...


but seriously though, is there something in that picture that's inaccurate? is there no correlation there? purely coincedence then, huh?


Playing the devil's advocate, correlation does not imply causation.
 
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Sterling

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so it's coincedence then. got it.
So you're saying the same ideas of yesteryear are still deeply rooted in society? Specifically mainly conservative areas. Is that it? Because I have a huge beef with that because it's very wrong. Don't just lump everyone in these areas into a single minded entity.
 

retKHAAAN

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You're "lumping everyone" in. Where did I say that "every single person in a red state is a bigot"? I live in Michigan. Does that mean I drive a GM built car? Michigan is a blue state. Does that mean everyone here voted for Obama? Go ahead and take anything stated about Texas personally though.
 

Sterling

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You're "lumping everyone" in. Where did I say that "every single person in a red state is a bigot"? I live in Michigan. Does that mean I drive a GM built car? Michigan is a blue state. Does that mean everyone here voted for Obama? Go ahead and take anything stated about Texas personally though.
What does this mean:

wait, so you're saying conservatives aren't racial bigots?

"Just kidding" does not excuse it either. You've already shown that you make huge blanket statements. Oh, and I will. Texas is very dear to me and I take great offense when it and its people are so blatantly insulted. I am not conservative (very far from it), but your statements are very much wrong. My professional opinion of you is also dropping quickly. You've yet to back your statements and honestly you're approaching the "flame bait" pitfall.
 

retKHAAAN

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"Just kidding" does not excuse it either. You've already shown that you make huge blanket statements. Oh, and I will. Texas is very dear to me and I take great offense when it and its people are so blatantly insulted. I am not conservative (very far from it), but your statements are very much wrong. My professional opinion of you is also dropping quickly. You've yet to back your statements and honestly you're approaching the "flame bait" pitfall.

Right. I'm making blanket statements by posting a picture that has been making its rounds on the internet for a week now. Again, you're getting butthert over nothing. My family is from Texas and most currently live there. One of my best friends lives in Texas. I'm sure that friend would be one of the first to point out that there are numerous bigots in Texas. And I'll be the first to point out that there are numerous bigots within a two block radius of my house. There are bigots in California and New York. There are bigots in Florida and Maine. Yet you're taking offense to the fact that I suggested there are bigots in Texas?

And your professional opinion of me? What profession is that, exactly? What statements have I made that need "backing"? This isn't a debate. There are bigots in Texas. Just as there are weeaboos on gbatemp. Neither of those are debatable.
 

Sterling

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I'd appreciate it if you'd back up whatever correlation you were trying to prove with that picture. I wasn't debating that there aren't any bigots, I was calling bull shit on that photo. As for my professional (meant personal) opinion, I used to think ofyou as a swell guy who is considerate, which now I do not.
 

smile72

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@Sterling, what I think he's trying to say was Texas (and many other red states) were deep Blue state until Lyndon B.Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act.
 

leic7

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The question still isn't answerable because you're trying to force a dark age concept into the modern era. The "flaw" you're trying to point out, if it does exist, is the exact same "flaw" for having a federal government take control over everything.

Therefore, your argument is not valid, as it doesn't provide any reason why a federal government is far superior over letting states take control of their issues. In the hypotheticals I presented, they show realistic scenarios as to why a federal government dictating social issues is a disastrous thing. The federal government is banning the use of harmless drugs. The federal government did try to introduce SOPA and other spying legislation. The federal government did pass the NDAA which allows the killing of innocent US civilians at the president's order.

However, if we let the states decide how to take control of things, several states could much more easily reject those horrendous laws for the benefit of their community. On the other hand, if the federal government had full control, they'd have to struggle to abolish all of these ridiculous laws. Of course you're going to have the oddball states that might do something silly (though they're not going to re-introduce slavery, dark age concept after all), but you're suggesting that the federal government isn't capable of making the same mistakes, when recent history has proven that they're far more idiotic than the local state governments.

If your argument can be flipped around so easily, it's not a valid argument.
So... Is this "dark age concept" a.k.a. slavery wrong in the modern era? Or is that not answerable? I can't believe how you have been dodging a simple question such as this over and over just to avoid examining your own position.

My position has never been that the federal government should take control over everything, every time. If that's the "argument" you think I was making, you're wrong. My position is that the state government should have the control sometimes, and the federal government should have control sometimes; when and who should have more control depend on the issue and on who's right and who's wrong. Because in the end what really matters is that we get the right decisions made, and the wrong decisions righted, who's making those decisions doesn't matter as much as the decisions being right.

Take a minute to absorb this: sometimes =/= always. You've wasted enough energy chasing a Straw Man in this thread, don't you think?

On that note, let me triple check if I understand your position correctly and am not chasing a Straw Man of my own: do you believe the state government should always have control over issues pertaining to the state, and that it would always be wrong for the federal government to intervene, no matter what the decision at the state level is?
 

retKHAAAN

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I'd appreciate it if you'd back up whatever correlation you were trying to prove with that picture. I wasn't debating that there aren't any bigots, I was calling bull shit on that photo. As for my professional (meant personal) opinion, I used to think ofyou as a swell guy who is considerate, which now I do not.


Point out the inaccuracies in that picture and I'll "back up" what ever it is you think I'm saying. There are three separate images in the picture that depict different periods in the nation's history. Which one of those is false?
 
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So... Is this "dark age concept" a.k.a. slavery wrong in the modern era? Or is that not answerable? I can't believe how you have been dodging a simple question such as this over and over just to avoid examining your own position.

My position has never been that the federal government should take control over everything, every time. If that's the "argument" you think I was making, you're wrong. My position is that the state government should have the control sometimes, and the federal government should have control sometimes; when and who should have more control depend on the issue and on who's right and who's wrong. Because in the end what really matters is that we get the right decisions made, and the wrong decisions righted, who's making those decisions doesn't matter as much as the decisions being right.

Take a minute to absorb this: sometimes =/= always. You've wasted enough energy chasing a Straw Man in this thread, don't you think?

On that note, let me triple check if I understand your position correctly and am not chasing a Straw Man of my own: do you believe the state government should always have control over issues pertaining to the state, and that it would always be wrong for the federal government to intervene, no matter what the decision at the state level is?

In my opinion, in the modern era, yes of course it's wrong, which I've already stated. But of course, that's just my opinion of a old age concept in the modern era. In the old days, perhaps I would have seen things very differently. I don't know how I would have felt back then, and neither do you. Hence why that earlier question was unanswerable. Nobody is avoiding anything here, you already got an answer to this particular question ages ago, but the concept of trying to force dark age concepts into the modern era is not a realistic scenario. It's not going to happen again, because morals have changed to where slavery isn't acceptable.

The problem of federal government making decisions sometimes, is determining which issues to have control over. I of course already stated that social issues should be localised as much as possible, because it's perfectly logical. When it comes to determining what to do with the single currency, that should probably be left to the federal government. Everyone shares the same currency, so a government that everyone shares should make the decisions with it. But like I've been arguing all along, just because you think something is wrong, doesn't mean that other people think it's wrong. Slavery is a ridiculous example, so try use other examples I've mentioned such as drug legalisation. I don't think drug usage is wrong in the privacy of one's home, yet the federal government says even possessing is wrong. Is forcing a state who's happy with their citizens using drugs to ban drugs acceptable?

If you think I'm purposely chasing a straw-man, then you're not good at clarifying your stance.

The state government should deal with social issues, and local expenditure. The federal government should be responsible for issues regarding the single currency, for determining national security decisions, and for handling agreements between states. The federal government should not be responsible for determining what to do with drug legalisation, gay marriage, abortion, and so on, as those are social issues. Remember, if they make the wrong decision with regarding a social issue, you're going to have a hard time changing it. It's not about who makes the right or wrong decisions, it's about what decisions each government should be responsible for.

Let's assume you wanted to legally marry someone of the same sex. Let's assume the federal government banned same-sex marriage (which is a realistic scenario, as they've done worse). In that scenario, you'd pretty much have no options, other than attempting to make a country-wide campaign to try to get the federal government to change their mind. On the other hand, if on a state level, the amount of campaigning you have to do is significantly reduced, and you have a higher chance of getting gay marriage legalised. Alternatively, you could travel a few hundred miles and live in a state where you feel more socially accepted. By reducing the power of the federal government, you're enhancing citizen's rights, you're enhancing their options, and you're enhancing their political power.

Ignore right or wrong here, because the federal government frequently writes laws that are morally wrong. Instead, think about providing options for citizens.
 
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