So, uh... the gas prices

[City]

Unless the government will do something about it, my parents will be expected to pay tens of thousands of dollars for this winter's gas bill, if they keep the same (low) consumption they had the previous year.

Isn't this a...big fucking problem? I will have to let my parents sleep at my place and that's going to suck because they're grade A cunts, but what about the people who don't have this option? Surely no one is going to expect people to actually pay those prices for the gas bill, so what's going to happen?

 

[lolcatzuru]

Unless the government will do something about it, my parents will be expected to pay tens of thousands of dollars for this winter's gas bill, if they keep the same (low) consumption they had the previous year.

Isn't this a...big fucking problem? I will have to let my parents sleep at my place and that's going to suck because they're grade A cunts, but what about the people who don't have this option? Surely no one is going to expect people to actually pay those prices for the gas bill, so what's going to happen?

WEll it depends on what version of the truth you want... if you want the alternative truth you can pick from one of a few options below.

1. Somehow, months later, the war the in ukraine is still affecting gas prcies
2. Opec is still trying to recoup their losses from the pandemic, which is somehow our problem.
3.orange man bad.
4.nobody wants to work.

or you can pick the actual truth, which is that brandon and his continuance see you as a walking talking piggybank and dont give a flying F what happens to you, similarly, they are probably concerned their " free and fair election" isnt gonna work a second time and they are loading up on money for adrenachrome now.

the truth of the matter is sadly, we live in a society largely based on feelings, and feelings are what got brandon in in the first place, and thus leading to these problems, and when you bring this up... yes, they'd rather suffer than see mean tweets.

 

[realtimesave]

I noticed it has kept a lot of dickheads off the road that road rage and tailgate, that's the only positive thing that has come of it. And I agree they are recouping for the pandemic but at the same time they find out that they can price gouge and make even more moneys. Thank OPEC and Saudi Arabia.

 

[FAST6191]

Appears to be a bit of a mix up between natural gas (heating, cooking, industry) and what Americans call gas and many others would call petrol. That said many of the same problems.

Rock and hard place for a lot of this.

Price caps is a dubious thing to do when you claim free market is a thing you like, and if it means losses for the companies providing it (quite possible) then they will limit supply to limit the losses.

Limiting supply also means you can fulfil your hippy nonsense agenda (we cut our usage/emissions by a 0.05% of China and/or India, or some more notable percentage if just going for same country year on year/decade on decade). Though I am seeing moves to have them classify gas as green energy which is hilarious. Hopefully we get more nuclear power, but lead times on those is years at best and probably decades if doing small nuclear batteries and Thorium. It also seems to be changing some attitudes towards building preservation (for years trying to get double glazing installed on any kind of listed building was a nightmare).
Lead times on gas exploration are also measured in years and hundreds of millions in investment and unlikely to do much if said same hippy agenda will shutter it before it turns a profit.

Old people freezing to death is bad optics, also saves on pensions and medical care (if you can't survive some cold you are probably expensive on the medical side of things), not to mention old people are the only ones that vote. Have to try to figure out acceptable levels of deaths for optics, inflection point for dropping your medical bills, preferably engineer it such that it is not your voters that die off in winter but those of your opponent(s) and hope nobody leaks any of those numbers/plans.

Surprised to see energy come to the fore as well as a limiting factor -- I thought water would probably be what we saw next, though energy was always on the cards. Wonder where the apologies to Putin tour and additional ball fondling session will happen.

About the only thing I wonder about is whether we will see olds bundled into various public buildings (cheaper to heat such things, indeed de facto version of that already existed in pubs in various villages that also figured out cost effective meals but most of those are long since gone) or government provided/subsidised electric blankets (heating house is hard, heating person on a sofa or in bed to at least not die is easier).

 

[City]

Appears to be a bit of a mix up between natural gas (heating, cooking, industry) and what Americans call gas and many others would call petrol. That said many of the same problems.

Yeah I should have used better phrasing lol

 

[KingVamp]

Funny, because it is the Republicans that are blocking gas bills meant for lowering cost.

 

[Deleted member 586536]

Ontop of the fact that there is no limits to how much said companies can charge. As they made record breaking profits.

 

[Deleted member 114266]

Don't worry the inflation reduction act that was recently passed which is a bunch of graft and handouts that will increase inflation has tax rebates to move you to heat pump-based heating systems.

This in theory is good as heat pumps are very efficient, which is right up to just a little below freezing. Then heating your house will use roughly the same electricity as cooling your house to 68F in 95F summer temps all winter long.

Never mind putting even more load on our electrical grids as more people move to electric cars with the additional funding from the bill. Power outages will just mean you don't have any heat, nor the ability to drive anywhere, everything will be fine.

 

[AlexMCS]

Hopefully we get more nuclear power,

GTFO here with nuclear power. Haven't you learned your lesson from it already?
Yes, it's the cleanest source, with a huge caveat: only when you can safely dispose of the waste, which is as of now, impossible.

I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.

We should have ditched petrol as a power source for decades as of now.

 

[Xzi]

Power outages will just mean you don't have any heat, nor the ability to drive anywhere, everything will be fine.

Power outages aren't a common occurrence except where shady privatized utility companies have a monopoly (Texas). And I'm not sure if you're just ignorant or purposefully spouting lies about outages that suddenly and fully discharge your electric vehicle's battery. Either way though, some electric vehicles (trucks mostly) are even being advertised as a way to power your home during such outages.

The most hilarious thing about this thread has to be Republicans pretending like Trump did anything at all to regulate corporate greed and profiteering during his time in office. Or that he'd be doing anything at all about it now. The guy would let you defile his mother's corpse for the right price. Both candidates/parties were and always have been capitalist, I'm sorry to say.

 

[Xzi]

GTFO here with nuclear power. Haven't you learned your lesson from it already?
Yes, it's the cleanest source, with a huge caveat: only when you can safely dispose of the waste, which is as of now, impossible.

I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.

We should have ditched petrol as a power source for decades as of now.

I'm with you as far as going all in on wind/solar/hydro is concerned, but the issue is that we don't have the technology necessary to store and transfer it to all parts of the country (at least in the US). We need a stopgap to get off fossil fuels sooner rather than later, and there aren't really any options better than nuclear power. Yes its waste lasts forever, but it also generates exponentially less waste than what we're doing currently, and we're not properly disposing of that either.

 

[Deleted member 114266]

Power outages aren't a common occurrence except where shady privatized utility companies have a monopoly (Texas). And I'm not sure if you're just ignorant or purposefully spouting lies about outages that suddenly and fully discharge your electric vehicle's battery. Either way though, some electric vehicles (trucks mostly) are even being advertised as a way to power your home during such outages.

I live in a major metropolitan area where 1/3 of the consumers lose power at some point during the year. Also, have a look at California and its roaming blackouts, utility comes there have also confirmed they can't generate enough power for everyone if everyone had electric cars.

And of course, power outages don't immediately drain your car battery. But have you ever had a 3-day, or even over 7-day outage? It happens, and can be during natural emergencies when you need to get the fuck out of dodge but don't have an easily portable fuel source.

GTFO here with nuclear power. Haven't you learned your lesson from it already?
Yes, it's the cleanest source, with a huge caveat: only when you can safely dispose of the waste, which is as of now, impossible.

I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.

We should have ditched petrol as a power source for decades as of now.

It's the big scary anti-Nuclear folks. Nuclear is still the cleanest energy source we have in terms of scale. Look into the environmental impact of producing those wind turbines and solar panels. Then also look at the long-term environmental impact of giant wind and solar farms.

Hydroelectric is great as long as you don't experience a long period of drought like those hitting the western states and affecting both the Hoover and Glen Canyon dams. Or hitting China's three gorges or even central Europe. Though initially building and flooding the new areas for the dam is a huge environmental change.

Geothermal electricity is extremely expensive per watt. So yes getting a Nuclear plant up and running is expensive, and there is some waste. But modern reactors can use the waste we have stored from older designs and using that waste as fuel gives it a shorter half-life, and there are new techniques for storage including encasing the waste in glass so it's not just a bunch of corrosive liquid in an oil barrel. https://www.newsweek.com/china-turn...lass-furnace-first-time-vitrification-1628387

 

[Xzi]

I live in a major metropolitan area where 1/3 of the consumers lose power at some point during the year.

Sure, but in most cases where we're talking about an hour or less, it's pretty much irrelevant.

Also, have a look at California and its roaming blackouts, utility comes there have also confirmed they can't generate enough power for everyone if everyone had electric cars.

Frankly it's always been dumb to have such car-centric infrastructure to begin with, especially in highly populated states like California where that translates to rolling parking lots almost 24/7. We need both far more walkable cities and far more public transport (rail/lightrail). Not only does it help save energy, it improves scores on the happiness index.

But have you ever had a 3-day, or even over 7-day outage? It happens, and can be during natural emergencies when you need to get the fuck out of dodge but don't have an easily portable fuel source.

Unless we start taking climate change seriously, it won't matter if you can go somewhere else during a natural disaster, because there will be nowhere else to go. My home state of Colorado will ultimately be one of the least impacted, yet we'll still be dealing with massive wildfires and hail the size of softballs. Both clean water to drink and clean air to breathe will become increasingly scarce everywhere.

 

[RAHelllord]

This in theory is good as heat pumps are very efficient, which is right up to just a little below freezing. Then heating your house will use roughly the same electricity as cooling your house to 68F in 95F summer temps all winter long.

Your information is outdated. Modern designs regularly function well up to -25°C (-13°F) at a good efficiency. Most places never encounter those temperatures, and if they do not for long. Combine this with it being possible to get better energy efficiency out of natural gas by burning it in a power plant and then moving the electricity to the consumer instead of the gas and it would take a heavy amount of load from the existing power grid, giving more time to upgrade it.

Like, if you don't have everyone burn gas in their own homes you can use that gas to make electricity and literally generate 4 times as much heat by just moving it inside via heat pump. A backup electrical heating unit would only be needed so irregularly that it is a vastly superior approach to heating most homes and far, far more energy efficient.

 

[Deleted member 114266]

Your information is outdated. Modern designs regularly function well up to -25°C (-13°F) at a good efficiency. Most places never encounter those temperatures, and if they do not for long. Combine this with it being possible to get better energy efficiency out of natural gas by burning it in a power plant and then moving the electricity to the consumer instead of the gas and it would take a heavy amount of load from the existing power grid, giving more time to upgrade it.

Like, if you don't have everyone burn gas in their own homes you can use that gas to make electricity and literally generate 4 times as much heat by just moving it inside via heat pump. A backup electrical heating unit would only be needed so irregularly that it is a vastly superior approach to heating most homes and far, far more energy efficient.

Do you have a source for these improved "modern" heat pumps? All of the information I find states that heat pumps fail at extracting heat from the outside air when the outside temperature drops below freezing and they fall back to a full electric heating so basically a large space heater.

There are hybrid systems that overcome the limitations of heat pumps, but those failover to a gas furnace backup which means you're not using full electric.

 

[RAHelllord]

Do you have a source for these improved "modern" heat pumps? All of the information I find states that heat pumps fail at extracting heat from the outside air when the outside temperature drops below freezing and they fall back to a full electric heating so basically a large space heater.

There are hybrid systems that overcome the limitations of heat pumps, but those failover to a gas furnace backup which means you're not using full electric.

The MXZ-SM48NAMHZ from Mitsubishi goes that low, without a failover. But even cheaper models from Mitsubishi go down to -15°C / 5F with ease, and you can easily supplement those with electrical heating in areas where temps below 5F are rare.
The only problem is that the outdoor unit needs to have a defrost occassionally once it gets too cold to remove ice buildup. This lowers the efficiency somewhat but they remain far more efficient than just burning gas until they stop working altogether. But the amount of gas saved over every single other day of the year would mean there is more gas available at the power plants to offset it with proper space heaters.

 

[The Real Jdbye]

Do you have a source for these improved "modern" heat pumps? All of the information I find states that heat pumps fail at extracting heat from the outside air when the outside temperature drops below freezing and they fall back to a full electric heating so basically a large space heater.

There are hybrid systems that overcome the limitations of heat pumps, but those failover to a gas furnace backup which means you're not using full electric.

Modern heat pumps have a heater in the outside unit which keeps it just above freezing when in use.

 

[City]

I can't fathom why, with so many freaking huge empty deserts, people haven't invested more in solar power yet, as it's pretty much the second cleanest alternate energy source, safe and pretty much limitless for the duration of the panels.

I'm 100% with you on this. Unfortunately, the current ways we use solar power have some limitations:

- Storing the energy is a pain
- If a panel gets dirty, it gets much less efficient. One breath of wind and all of your desert panels are dirty. Who's going to wash them?
- Don't quote me on this, but roughly 5% of the light that gets to a solar panel is converted into energy, the rest becomes heat. I'm not entirely sure it's 5%, but definitely less than 15

There have been some projects, like covering roads with solar panels, that unfortunately have been proven not being that good of an idea (I suggest Thunderf00t's channel where he often calls out impossible projects like this). Maybe a mix of solar, wind and water can be a better idea?

 

[Deleted member 114266]

The MXZ-SM48NAMHZ from Mitsubishi goes that low, without a failover. But even cheaper models from Mitsubishi go down to -15°C / 5F with ease, and you can easily supplement those with electrical heating in areas where temps below 5F are rare.
The only problem is that the outdoor unit needs to have a defrost occassionally once it gets too cold to remove ice buildup. This lowers the efficiency somewhat but they remain far more efficient than just burning gas until they stop working altogether. But the amount of gas saved over every single other day of the year would mean there is more gas available at the power plants to offset it with proper space heaters.

Modern heat pumps have a heater in the outside unit which keeps it just above freezing when in use.

Yes, it's possible for heat pumps to operate in sub-freezing temperatures. But can you find me the efficiency ratings for the Mitsubishis? The documentation on their site only lists it for down to 14F, while listing running for 5F, 0F, 05F, and -14F.

The point still stands once you get below freezing heat pumps become much less efficient and start up their own internal heaters to work. That's why I originally said the price of heating with them spikes.

Normally a heat pump can pull heat from the outside air, but once it hits freezing, the pump needs the internal heater to kick in for it to function. But there isn't any magic happening. The heat pump is running an electric heater just like a small space heater you could have. But those small space heaters use 1,500W, now scale that up to the heating needs of a house.

In cold climates, you are still looking at needing gas so you can run a hybrid system which would have major cost savings versus electric alone. I shudder thinking about the power needs for the utilities for non-hybrid systems along with charging electric cars. With cooling in the summer there's usually a pullback of demand during the night, in the winter it would get colder and needs more electricity to heat while needing to also charge cars during "off hours".

In the dark parts of the year, these colder climates have the majority of their days as completely overcast with maybe up to eight hours of daylight. So solar panels to help cut down on costs are out, and even if it was a cloudless day, those are normally much colder days and the solar panels will be covered in snow and ice.

In dry warm areas like a desert or California (but I repeat myself), solar panels and heat pumps for cooling make a lot of sense. Even at night when it gets down to the 40s they do an amazing job heating and are very efficient. But they aren't an answer to get away from gas in every scenario. Much like our autonomous cars that are just around the corner, throw them up against a harsh cold climate and they start not working as they should.

 

[AlexMCS]

It's the big scary anti-Nuclear folks. Nuclear is still the cleanest energy source we have in terms of scale. Look into the environmental impact of producing those wind turbines and solar panels. Then also look at the long-term environmental impact of giant wind and solar farms.

Like I said, it's the cleanest, as long as no disaster happens. When it does, it's a nightmare.
We'd need a safe way to jettison nuclear waste into the outer space IMO, or some sort of extremely fortified chamber to allow radiation to naturally decay into something harmless, and I bet those wouldn't be cheap.

I'm 100% with you on this. Unfortunately, the current ways we use solar power have some limitations:

- Storing the energy is a pain
- If a panel gets dirty, it gets much less efficient. One breath of wind and all of your desert panels are dirty. Who's going to wash them?
- Don't quote me on this, but roughly 5% of the light that gets to a solar panel is converted into energy, the rest becomes heat. I'm not entirely sure it's 5%, but definitely less than 15

There have been some projects, like covering roads with solar panels, that unfortunately have been proven not being that good of an idea (I suggest Thunderf00t's channel where he often calls out impossible projects like this). Maybe a mix of solar, wind and water can be a better idea?

I'm not an expert in solar energy, far from it, but I do know the current efficiency is around 20~25%.
The heat itself could be turned into energy, also helping reduce Earth's temperature.

No idea if this is possible either, but regarding cleaning, why not encase the panels it in hydrophobic treated glass?

As for the environmental impact from production, even the nuclear plant will have it, so it's kinda moot to bring it up.

is that we don't have the technology necessary to store and transfer it to all parts of the country (at least in the US).

I don't know why it's supposedly so hard to distribute.
It doesn't seem so hard over here.