The escalation of the Israel-Palestine conflict

[Taleweaver]

Note in advance: I'm not sure if there are other threads on this. I can't find recent ones, and...well...despite the populace being at each others throats for many years, things have escalated heavily over the last days.

The recent uprising seems to have two causes:

1) the movement of the Israelian American embassy from Tel Aviv to Jeruzalem. Trump's stance on the mess in the region is at least simple to explain: "Israel is correct". And since Israel claims Jeruzalem as their capital, the move should be legal...right? Of course not: The Palestinians hava also always claimed Jeruzalem as their main capital, and they obviously disagree to being called terrorists by a certain blonde foreigner.
So the least you can say is that the act was controversial. I'm neither Arab nor Jewish, but it would seem to me that it was just unnecessary cruel.

2) the 70th birthday of what Palestines call "Al-Nakba". From what I can find, Palestine was part of the Ottoman empire that lost the first world war. As a result, it was annexed by France and England, who agreed with the world Zionist organisation that it would become a home for Jews. This obviously led to a large influx of Jews, especially after the holocaust. The local Arabs never had any say in the treaties, so this lead to uproar in itself. This escalated when France and England left. The forming of Israel as a country directly resulted in hundreds of thousands of forced Palestinians evacuations in 1948 (the Nakba).

This sort of history isn't pretty. No matter what justification, you wouldn't like it if someone forced you out of your home. And that's what's been going on but on a much larger scale. With riots, cease-fires and wars for seventy years now. Israel has called Hamas (the political Palestinian group who want to take back their annexed country) terrorists ever since the word became popular. But it's getting harder to convince the rest of the world of that claim (unless you're leader of the USA, that is).

In any case...these two things combined have lead to some horrible news. In the just opened American embassy, you see smiling faces: Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner getting blessed. Benjamin Nethanyahu saying it's a great day for peace.
...and meanwhile, on the Palestinian side of the border (no, not ON the border: on their side of the border) Israelian snipers and drones fire en masse at unarmed protesters. Shooting to kill, according to independent reporters (that is, if you consider amnesty international independent).
At the end of the day, the sad result is 68 dead (among which 8 kids and a baby) and well over thousand wounded. Oh, and apparently one light wounded Israelian soldier.

The scary thing isn't so much that most Israelian civilians have no clue about this massacre at their borders (of course they've got reason to celebrate: the country celebrates its seventieth birthday, and America supports their claim on "their" rightful holy city*). It's the audacity to not even bother covering up what they're doing. The Israelian diplomate in Belgium, for example, flat out called the protesters - even the children - terrorists. Nethanyahu thinks that every country would do the same thing they did to prevent their population from harmless protesters.

<*sigh*>

As said, this conflict isn't new. Europe doesn't want to get its hand dirty and USA protects Israel (guess who vetoed the call for an independent investigation on this massacre). Nethanyahu claims being innocent. Palestine is too busy burying its dead and treating their wounded to have any say in the matter.

...

I'm not sure if I dare ask for opinions on the matter, so let me ask a more direct question: is what I'm saying news to you?

(here in Belgium, you've gotta live under a rock not to have noticed it. But I fear this "everyone knows"-thing isn't as everyone-including as I think it is)



*small footnote: from what I can gather, Israel agreed to the United Nations to co-exist with Palestine somewhat after the Nakba. This agreement included that Jeruzalem was to be given to Palestine

 

[The Catboy]

What Trump did was easily the stupidest thing he's done since he's been in the Oval Office and that's saying something. He damn well knew that this would make matters worse and did it anyways because he's an asshole and he wants to start a war. It's pretty obvious that he wants to drag the US back into the Middle East because he wants to start a war and he doesn't care what causes it to happen.

 

[Taleweaver]

What Trump did was easily the stupidest thing he's done since he's been in the Oval Office and that's saying something. He damn well knew that this would make matters worse and did it anyways because he's an asshole and he wants to start a war. It's pretty obvious that he wants to drag the US back into the Middle East because he wants to start a war and he doesn't care what causes it to happen.

I'd say that in terms of stupidity, it's about up to par with that "I've got the largest nuclear button!!!"-debacle with North Korea. But in terms of outcome, this is far worse. A next president can undo some damage that Donald does, but no one will be able to revive the deaths caused by this series of events.

 

[Foxi4]

The media are pushing a false narrative about the conflict and it's kind of sickening to see it play out. For those not in the know, the Gaza strip is governed by HAMAS, a known terrorist organisation. The current "protest" is an elaborate smoke screen that's supposed to divert attention from an organised effort by HAMAS to breach the border and do as much damage as possible - they're literally shipping their militia operatives through tire smoke, people armed with pipe bombs, grenades and wire cutters, using civilians as human shields. They're not subtle about it either - one of their leaders, Yahya Sinwar, announced on *national television* back in early April that HAMAS is going to organise a push on the fence, breach the border and "tear their [Jewish] hearts out", now it's mid-may, they're doing exactly what they promised they would and somehow it's Israel's fault. The "evil Jews" are just randomly shooting Palestinians, 10 of whom, as it turns out, were active members of HAMAS and another 3 were a part of Islamic Jihad, another terrorist group - random chance, they just happened to be there, complete coincidence.

The idea that this is some kind of Israeli offensive against Palestinians is preposterous - Israel has complete land and air superiority in the region, they could wipe out Gaza if they wanted to. HAMAS knows this which is why they will not engage in direct armed conflict - they will instead hide their missile sites in schools, their terrorist cells in hospitals and their soldiers in crowds of civilians willing to die for the cause just to make Israel face sanctions when they retaliate and civilians inevitably get hit in the crossfire. It's absolutely disgusting, but Israel is not the aggressor here - they're entitled to defend their land from foreign incursion which is all they're doing here, it's all they have been doing since Israel was established. Time after time Israel was attacked by neighbouring states and we're just supposed to pretend that the only true democracy in the middle east is the aggressor when they've always been on the defensive.

As for Jerusalem, it is the eternal capital of Israel - the only reason why the site is relevant in any way is because it was relevant to the Jews first. The decision to move the American embassy to Jerusalem was made by Congress way back in 1995 - Clinton was too scared to do it, Bush was too scared to do it, Obama was too scared to do it, finally Trump came along and did what's right by recognising that the capital of Israel is in fact Jerusalem and that's where the embassy belongs. Not only do I think this is the right thing to do, it is my hope that other countries follow suit.

I too have heard of the Palestinian child that died when tear gas was deployed, of course it's very sad. Why the mother would take a child to an area of active conflict is beyond me, but that's besides the point. The point is that Jews have had a presence in the area for well over 3000 years. Jerusalem is the holiest place in these people's religion, it is older than the oldest symbol you could find in America, or most other countries for that matter, and it is not close. Jews have went through a lot in history, they didn't exactly have it easy, but now a nation that was nearly exterminated finally reclaimed the one place on the planet they can call home and all they're facing is outright blood libel. What right do we have to judge them for defending what is rightfully theirs, theirs in historical terms and theirs through international recognition?

Israel is an independent nation and their border is under siege, that's all there is to it, and the civilian casualties are not their fault - not when there is armed personel carrying grenades and pipe bombs ready kill Israeli citizens as soon as they can slip past the border and the IDF soldiers guarding it. The conflict could end tomorrow if HAMAS wanted it to end - they could accept the partition and move on, but they choose to fight.

I know exactly how to differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys here - Palestinians are free to live in Israel and practice their religion, so are Christians and any other group. Gays, lesbians and other LGBT minorities are free to live their lives in peace. Every citizen is free to participate in Israeli elections, so much so that there are sitting ministers in the government who are actively calling for the dissolution of the state they're governing - that's acceptable because Israel is free. Conversely, on the other side gays are hung from cranes, Jews and Christians are actively persecuted and killed, Jewish visitors to the Temple Mount are not legally allowed to pray at their holiest site and terrorists are in charge of the government. There isn't a grey area here, the sides are very clear and it's really shocking to see that this is somehow a controversy, still, after years of conflict.

Just to be clear, this isn't an opinion of the staff, it's not representative of the site - it's just my opinion. I hope the protests quiet down soon, nobody wants to see civilians killed, but sometimes the use of force is justified.

 

[Viri]

Jerusalem, is the capital of Israel. They can bitch and moan all they want about it, but it's the truth.

 

[lolboy]

HAMAS, a known terrorist organisation.

This is the problem with world. Enemies can just declare each other as “terrorists” to justify their massacre, because they will find ways to blame it on the “terrorist”.

I consider Israel as terror state and Hamas as terror orginazation. Both should be stopped.

 

[Foxi4]

This is the problem with world. Enemies can just declare each other as “terrorists” to justify their massacre, because they will find ways to blame it on the “terrorist”.

I consider Israel as terror state and Hamas as terror orginazation. Both should be stopped.

There's a very clear definition of what a terrorist is - a terrorist is a person who wants to achieve political objectives through means of violence and, you guessed it, terror. I don't remember Israel ever sending Jews in bomb vests over the border and into Arab territory to kill helpless Muslims, I do however remember the Arab-Israeli War, when Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen have decided that Israel has no right to exist, Jews all need to be killed and together they merrily invaded Israel on exactly the same day the British Mandate over Palestine expired. They did this with a clear intention of pushing Jews out of the region completely and claiming it for Palestinians in direct violation of the UN partition plan. It hadn't even been a full day since Israel declared independence that its immediate neighbours have tried to destroy it, and they have been trying to destroy it ever since. It's easy to accuse a state of being a "terror state" when all they do is fight, but it's generally wise to make an effort and find out why they fight.

 

[kumikochan]

I have seen most of the videos of the people getting shot and all i could see was people holding kids in the air using them as shields while throwing molotov cocktails and the other people getting shot wich you can clearly see in the videos breached the fence and are trying to cut it with a wire cutter but the whole world moans about the deaths of terrorists who use children as shields while using rocks in a slingshot wich can murder people and throwing cocktails while all the officials stay behind in their mansions fattening up the people with lies with their big orchestrated play for the whole world to see. Glad that a lot of people aren't that blind and see through all the acting.
People probably already have seen these 2 videos but it says enough about most of the Muslim countries surrounding Israel.

 

[lolboy]

I don't remember Israel ever sending Jews in bomb vests over the border and into Arab territory to kill helpless Muslims

No need for that when you got fighter jets and tanks which can destroy entire buildings.

 

[Foxi4]

No need for that when you got fighter jets and tanks which can destroy entire buildings.

Buildings full of terrorists are fine to demolish as far as I'm concerned. Buildings full of missiles aimed at my people would be on my demo list too if I were faced with a non-stop onslaught of aggression.

 

[lolboy]

Buildings full of terrorists are fine to demolish as far as I'm concerned. Buildings full of missiles aimed at my people would be on my demo list too if I were faced with a non-stop onslaught of aggression.

Yes...all buildings are full of terrorists according to Israel and their supporters.

 

[Foxi4]

Yes...all buildings are full of terrorists according to Israel and their supporters.

Ah yes, it's an evil conspiracy, the Juden are up to their old tricks. Give me a break, they just want to live in peace without worrying that a bus full of explosives will ram through their walls.

 

[Xzi]

As for Jerusalem, it is the eternal capital of Israel - the only reason why the site is relevant in any way is because it was relevant to the Jews first. The decision to move the American embassy to Jerusalem was made by Congress way back in 1995 - Clinton was too scared to do it, Bush was too scared to do it, Obama was too scared to do it, finally Trump came along and did what's right by recognising that the capital of Israel is in fact Jerusalem and that's where the embassy belongs. Not only do I think this is the right thing to do, it is my hope that other countries follow suit.

Perhaps none of the other presidents did it because they knew it would ignite a larger conflict within the entire region? I wonder if you'll be defending another war in the Middle East, probably with Iran, with the same passion. I think the majority of Americans truly are sick and tired of being the world's police, and this is actually worse in that we'd be starting a conflict to defend another country's interests. Of course, if there's anything to find amusing in this grim-looking situation, it's that Trump's supporters in the majority hate (((globalists))), aka Israel, aka Jews, but Trump is willing to play ball with anyone for money.

 

[Clydefrosch]

to be honest, i'd be all for closing off jerusalem for everyone, like us, the rest of the world, putting an end to this. throw everyone out, put the biggest cluster of nuclear weapons in the center and have them blow up if anyone gets close.
if they have any respect for their holy site, they will leave it be.

both sides have pulled some more than shady stunts in this conflict, though its quite obvious that isreal is the mayor force in the conflict and that palestinians are simply resorting to the only chance they have to compete, which is terrorism styled warfare.
implying that its all elaborated smokescreens and theatrics for the sake of just being terrorists is bullshit, its just the only choice they have against isreali forces, outside of letting themselves be displaced again and again for a few decades as isreal claims more ground, until one day they're all dead and gone.

the entire conflict is pretty much unresolvable at this point, as both sides (as in the general population) can only view the other as cruel and wrong and better off gone forever. noone alive in either country has been around for the start of this, generations all grew up with it going on, learning and ingraining that the other side wants them dead. its a bloodfeud if there ever was one, there is no rational way for it to end without one side being entirely decimated or both sides being forced to stop by an outside power.
and its clear that the last one isn't happening.

trump moving the embassy was a terrible move, as it pretty much gives legitimation to isreals plans of expansion, which is obviously threatening for palestine, considering isreal has all the firepower in the world to end them if the world wasn't watching. and even that isn't much of a deterent anymore.

 

[Foxi4]

Perhaps none of the other presidents did it because they knew it would ignite a larger conflict within the entire region? I wonder if you'll be defending another war in the Middle East, probably with Iran, with the same passion. I think the majority of Americans truly are sick and tired of being the world's police, and this is actually worse in that we'd be starting a conflict to defend another country's interests. Of course, if there's anything to find amusing in this grim-looking situation, it's that Trump's supporters in the majority hate (((globalists))), aka Israel, aka Jews, but Trump is willing to play ball with anyone for money.

Will I support a war against an oppressive state that funds terrorism across the globe and threatens the freedom of not just its immediate neighbours, but also our own, should such a war break out? Absolutely and wholeheartedly. I don't understand how one couldn't - the governments and organisations we're discussing here are *openly hostile* to anyone who's not Muslim, is this even a real choice? In the face of an attack one must defend themselves. As for Trump (nice use of the echo sign, do you know it's considered hate speech?), so far he's managed to end the Korean War through shitposting on Twitter - be it by genius design or by accident fueled by idiocy he's achieved something no previous administration could even dream of accomplishing, no matter what concessions they offered - I'll happily put my money on a blind horse as long as it knows how to win races.

 

[Xzi]

Will I support a war against an oppressive state that funds terrorism across the globe and threatens the freedom of not just its immediate neighbours, but also our own, should such a war break out? Absolutely and wholeheartedly.

Rofl, and you're completely tone deaf as to how the US would look like the aggressors in that situation? Iran held up their end of the nuclear agreement until Trump reneged on it, and AFAIK they still hold the agreement with other nations that didn't bail. What the fuck would we hope to accomplish there in the end, anyway? Another 15-year quagmire like Iraq or Afghanistan? The US gains nothing, all we'd be doing is spilling American blood and raising the price of oil to the benefit of mostly Russian interests.

be it by genius design or by accident field with idiocy he's achieved something no previous administration could even dream of accomplishing, no matter what concessions they offered - I'll happily put my money on a blind horse as long as it knows how to win races.

Yup, speeding up nuclear proliferation and escalating conflicts worldwide while fucking up what few diplomatic opportunities you do have (N Korea). "Winning" in the Charlie Sheen sense.

 

[Taleweaver]

The media are pushing a false narrative about the conflict and it's kind of sickening to see it play out. For those not in the know, the Gaza strip is governed by HAMAS, a known terrorist organisation. The current "protest" is an elaborate smoke screen that's supposed to divert attention from an organised effort by HAMAS to breach the border and do as much damage as possible - they're literally shipping their militia operatives through tire smoke, people armed with pipe bombs, grenades and wire cutters, using civilians as human shields. They're not subtle about it either - one of their leaders, Yahya Sinwar, announced on *national television* back in early April that HAMAS is going to organise a push on the fence, breach the border and "tear their [Jewish] hearts out", now it's mid-may, they're doing exactly what they promised they would and somehow it's Israel's fault. The "evil Jews" are just randomly shooting Palestinians, 10 of whom, as it turns out, were active members of HAMAS and another 3 were a part of Islamic Jihad, another terrorist group - random chance, they just happened to be there, complete coincidence.

The idea that this is some kind of Israeli offensive against Palestinians is preposterous - Israel has complete land and air superiority in the region, they could wipe out Gaza if they wanted to. HAMAS knows this which is why they will not engage in direct armed conflict - they will instead hide their missile sites in schools, their terrorist cells in hospitals and their soldiers in crowds of civilians willing to die for the cause just to make Israel face sanctions when they retaliate and civilians inevitably get hit in the crossfire. It's absolutely disgusting, but Israel is not the aggressor here - they're entitled to defend their land from foreign incursion which is all they're doing here, it's all they have been doing since Israel was established. Time after time Israel was attacked by neighbouring states and we're just supposed to pretend that the only true democracy in the middle east is the aggressor when they've always been on the defensive.

As for Jerusalem, it is the eternal capital of Israel - the only reason why the site is relevant in any way is because it was relevant to the Jews first. The decision to move the American embassy to Jerusalem was made by Congress way back in 1995 - Clinton was too scared to do it, Bush was too scared to do it, Obama was too scared to do it, finally Trump came along and did what's right by recognising that the capital of Israel is in fact Jerusalem and that's where the embassy belongs. Not only do I think this is the right thing to do, it is my hope that other countries follow suit.

I too have heard of the Palestinian child that died when tear gas was deployed, of course it's very sad. Why the mother would take a child to an area of active conflict is beyond me, but that's besides the point. The point is that Jews have had a presence in the area for well over 3000 years. Jerusalem is the holiest place in these people's religion, it is older than the oldest symbol you could find in America, or most other countries for that matter, and it is not close. Jews have went through a lot in history, they didn't exactly have it easy, but now a nation that was nearly exterminated finally reclaimed the one place on the planet they can call home and all they're facing is outright blood libel. What right do we have to judge them for defending what is rightfully theirs, theirs in historical terms and theirs through international recognition?

Israel is an independent nation and their border is under siege, that's all there is to it, and the civilian casualties are not their fault - not when there is armed personel carrying grenades and pipe bombs ready kill Israeli citizens as soon as they can slip past the border and the IDF soldiers guarding it. The conflict could end tomorrow if HAMAS wanted it to end - they could accept the partition and move on, but they choose to fight.

I know exactly how to differentiate between the good guys and the bad guys here - Palestinians are free to live in Israel and practice their religion, so are Christians and any other group. Gays, lesbians and other LGBT minorities are free to live their lives in peace. Every citizen is free to participate in Israeli elections, so much so that there are sitting ministers in the government who are actively calling for the dissolution of the state they're governing - that's acceptable because Israel is free. Conversely, on the other side gays are hung from cranes, Jews and Christians are actively persecuted and killed, Jewish visitors to the Temple Mount are not legally allowed to pray at their holiest site and terrorists are in charge of the government. There isn't a grey area here, the sides are very clear and it's really shocking to see that this is somehow a controversy, still, after years of conflict.

Just to be clear, this isn't an opinion of the staff, it's not representative of the site - it's just my opinion. I hope the protests quiet down soon, nobody wants to see civilians killed, but sometimes the use of force is justified.

A good, well-thought and well-written post. I like it for that, though I don't agree with a lot of stuff.

* hamas is indeed known for using weapons for their political means. I obviously don't approve of it, but that doesn't automatically makes them terrorists. The way I see it, there is simply no way to properly talk about reaching a peaceful solution. One of the articles I've recently read talks about peace-seeking groups (on both sides of the border) becoming more and more marginalized.
* when I said that Israelians shot Palestines on their side of the border, I meant exactly that. The "border" on the premise is a 300 meter 'no go' zone, with barb wire marking the end of it. It wouldn't be pretty but at least somewhat understandable if the protesters marched in that no go zone and got shot there. But that isn't what happened: they shot to up to 500 meter in Palestinian territory.
* I mentioned the protesters were unarmed, right? Okay, perhaps a few carried rocks or self-made molotov-cocktails, but the general idea was a peaceful protest. Like people have the right to do around the world. And that includes members of organisations as well.
* so hamas hides in school, hospitals and the like. of course it would be much easier for Israel if they just sat out in the open with bright red "SHOOT ME" signs on their head, but shouldn't the question be: why do these schools, hospitals and the like accept all this? It goes back to the first point, but hamas is popular with the population because they believe in the end goal (and I'm sure they hate the weapons as much as anyone).

 

[Foxi4]

A good, well-thought and well-written post. I like it for that, though I don't agree with a lot of stuff.

* hamas is indeed known for using weapons for their political means. I obviously don't approve of it, but that doesn't automatically makes them terrorists. The way I see it, there is simply no way to properly talk about reaching a peaceful solution. One of the articles I've recently read talks about peace-seeking groups (on both sides of the border) becoming more and more marginalized.
* when I said that Israelians shot Palestines on their side of the border, I meant exactly that. The "border" on the premise is a 300 meter 'no go' zone, with barb wire marking the end of it. It wouldn't be pretty but at least somewhat understandable if the protesters marched in that no go zone and got shot there. But that isn't what happened: they shot to up to 500 meter in Palestinian territory.
* I mentioned the protesters were unarmed, right? Okay, perhaps a few carried rocks or self-made molotov-cocktails, but the general idea was a peaceful protest. Like people have the right to do around the world. And that includes members of organisations as well.
* so hamas hides in school, hospitals and the like. of course it would be much easier for Israel if they just sat out in the open with bright red "SHOOT ME" signs on their head, but shouldn't the question be: why do these schools, hospitals and the like accept all this? It goes back to the first point, but hamas is popular with the population because they believe in the end goal (and I'm sure they hate the weapons as much as anyone).

The premise of your response is that it's okay for Palestinians to run up to the border fence brandishing weapons with the clear intention of throwing said weapons over the fence and killing Israeli people, but it is not okay to fire upon them in order to prevent that. That's pretty noble, if a bit naive. They're not "peaceful protests" and the organisers say as much. They're also not armed with "rocks and cocktails", on March 30th IDF shot down two "protesters" armed with AK-47's and hand grenades. Like I said, HAMAS is using the crowds to smuggle in martyrs for the cause and Israel has every right to stop any attempt at a border breach. Once they're at the fence it's already too late - they can discharge any manner of weapons or explosives and harm people on the other side. Israel went through extreme measures to discourage people from approaching the border - they have planes dropping fliers informing people that they should not approach it or they will be shot at, they're doing what they can to minimise collateral, but HAMAS isn't helping. Their idea of peace is the dissolution of the state of Israel, that's not on the table.

 

[Xzi]

The premise of your response is that it's okay for Palestinians to run up to the border fence brandishing weapons with the clear intention of throwing said weapons over the fence and killing Israeli people, but it is not okay to fire upon them in order to prevent that. That's pretty noble, if a bit naive. They're not "peaceful protests" and the organisers say as much. They're also not armed with "rocks and cocktails", on March 30th IDF shot down two "protesters" armed with AK-47's and hand grenades. Like I said, HAMAS is using the crowds to smuggle in martyrs for the cause and Israel has every right to stop any attempt at a border breach. Once they're at the fence it's already too late - they can discharge any manner of weapons or explosives and harm people on the other side. Israel went through extreme measures to discourage people from approaching the border - they have planes dropping fliers informing people that they should not approach it or they will be shot at, they're doing what they can to minimise collateral, but HAMAS isn't helping. Their idea of peace is the dissolution of the state of Israel, that's not on the table.

Dude, Israeli snipers shot Canadian doctors who were very much aware of the border lines and nowhere near them at the time.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...r-shot-while-aiding-palestinians-in-gaza.html

It's common knowledge that the Israelis have been trigger happy for years now with Netanyahu in charge. He's Israel's Dick Cheney.

 

[Foxi4]

Rofl, and you're completely tone deaf as to how the US would look like the aggressors in that situation? Iran held up their end of the nuclear agreement until Trump reneged on it, and AFAIK they still hold the agreement with other nations that didn't bail. What the fuck would we hope to accomplish there in the end, anyway? Another 15-year quagmire like Iraq or Afghanistan? The US gains nothing, all we'd be doing is spilling American blood and raising the price of oil to the benefit of mostly Russian interests.

An agreement that was, at the time, criticised for being grossly inadequate and should've never been signed in the first place, not to mention that it skirted the law. An international treaty must be approved by 2/3rds of the Senate, the "Iran Deal" was just a fancy of the president that completely overstepped due process. He acted as if he was the deciding body of foreign policy which he was not. Are you even aware of the fact that the agreement did not include the possibility for the IAEA to inspect military sites, the sites where you store *weapons*, nor did it prevent Iran from developing ICBM's? All it accomplished was funnelling a bunch of money into Iran for a promise that they won't develop a nuke while actively working on ICBM's. Guess what happens after the deal expires? They dig up the old papers, documentation that Israeli spies stole, develop a warhead and put it right into their brand-new intercontinental missiles. If you think the Iran deal prevented Iran from developing nukes, I've got a bridge to sell you on the cheap.

Yup, speeding up nuclear proliferation and escalating conflicts worldwide while fucking up what few diplomatic opportunities you do have (N Korea). "Winning" in the Charlie Sheen sense.

This is the first time in history that the North Korean dictator stepped into the demilitarised zone to shake hands with South Korean diplomats. You can dispute the methods, but you can't argue with the results. Maybe Iran will stop developing nukes if Trump just shitposts at them incessantly, I don't know how he does his magic, but it works.