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The U.S. is more dangerously divided than any other wealthy democracy. Is there a way back from the brink? (Yascha Mounk)

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Lacius

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And this here is the problem, and why we will never see a solution.

As long as we have political cultists like Lacius, completely incapable of seeing the crap of his own party, the US will continue its decline.

Because nothing screems democracy more than saying "lets ban all political parties and ideologies except mine, cause everyone else, except me, is radical and extremist".

I hope you do know that this is exactly how Hitler rose to power, by telling everyone that the others were violent and radical and that they should be banned from politics.

Hitler eventually did what you ask for Lacius, he banned the other political parties because of people like you who gave him the Nobel Peace Prize and clapped like seals when he said that the Jews were oppressing the poor German workers.

So yeah good idea Lacius, lets have the same exact fucking discourse and MO as Hitler did to get to power, that's definitely not authoritarian.
I didn't say anything about banning political parties or ideologies, you disingenuous little pissant.

My political party isn't the one rejecting democracy and broadly supporting a violent coup, so I think we both know where you can take the word "authoritarianism" and shove it.

This whole site is a dumpster fire and I generally don't post much here anymore, so the next time you want to quote a post of mine that's nearly two months old only to inadvertently mock yourself, don't. You'll save us both some trouble.
 

Delerious

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That primary comes from the strong response of the far right constantly prosecuting trans people. If that effected you, a lot of us are sorry, that's not the intent, we're just so tired and sick of hearing it, and it's truly begging to hurt people that we have to start assuming that your part of that camp.

Understandable. I'm not particularly fond of much of the right's BS over the last several years myself, because it all too often comes down to Raeganomics and culture war these days. It especially must suck to be at the brunt of it.

Texas has outright said it wants to ban gender affirming care entirely for example.
Even if your not a trans person, this still can help you. There are guys who's gender matches with what their birth. In other words, they are a guy, who is sure they are a guy. But their hormones, for whatever reason it may be, is not quite aligned right. Maybe their voice still hasn't dropped and it's still pretty late in puberty. Or that their face looks a little more femine than it should. Or that they're developing wider hips, when they really shouldn't be.

Yeah, we all know how terrible Texas can be in the civil liberties department when the wrong people are in charge (which is pretty much always). Hell, they're also cracking down hard on abortion now, even though a notable portion of conservatives these days are in favor of some form of it within reason.

I don't know what gender affirmation looks like, so I'm ignorant in that category. I realize this may come off as "right thought," but I am one of those who believes that current science can't change what you are in regards to being male or female, and the first step should always be to try and help people accept and embrace that. That's not to say people should have to adopt "masculine" or "feminine" roles or traits based on their biological sex, but not accepting the body you were born into isn't especially healthy in my view. Also, when you change the definition of gender, you might as well change the very definition of what is a man and what is a woman. And if people can't agree on any true definition, then the terms might as well only be reserved for the medical and biological field, and stop using it as an identifier of what we assume based on appearance, or even behavior.

As for hormone therapy, I don't know what that looks like for people who are looking to "fit" more into their biological sex, nor do I know how much is prescribed for people looking to transition. But the body is designed to work with our hormones based on our genetic makeup. If you go too extreme in the other direction, it can cause health problems. Men, for example, can lose muscle and bone density, and their risk of osteoporosis, infertility and breast cancer is increased. For women, they may start to lose their hair, develop acne, grow facial hair and have a deeper voice - and some of those effects are irreversible. Ultimately though, as long as they are a consenting adult, what choices they make are theirs and theirs alone. I'm sure for a lot of people transitioning, they are probably made aware of any real risks.

Further more there's a lot of evidence multiple genders do infact, exist. We already are aware of people who do not match the binary XX XY format. There's some people out there who are XXY or whatever the fuck else I haven't mentioned. But then you also have the complicated thing that is brain development.

The XXY example you give is called Klinefelter Syndrome, which, in and of itself is not necessarily indicative of whether one is a different gender. Furthermore, this is classified as a [genetic condition] in males, and has real physical impacts, such as weak bones, lower energy levels and higher risk of obesity.

Tl;dr the body develops first, before the actual brain does. Which sounds obvious, but that also means that you can have the equivalent of a male body, with a female brain. Due to one being started later than the other, if any other hormone is more dominant than the other during that process, which naturally can happen. Then you get the people who feel genuinely uncomfortable in their own bodies, since their body developed in a prodominantly female esk setup. And is going to develop that way without intervention. While having the brain been developed in a more male esk setup, due to being started later. Not being developed at the sametime as their body.

Hm, the "male" and "female" brain argument is actually said to not really even matter. Even some of the science supporting gender ideology assumes that our brains are rather "agender." Many psychologists agree that your overall behavior is mostly going to come back to your conditioning when growing up - that, and hormones. That's not to say there aren't outliers, as science is a constantly changing field, and there are always going to be core aspects of human nature that play a role.

Also, as far as human development goes, are you referring to development in the womb? Or are you referring to one's reproductive components?

----------------------------------------

Now onto the topic of gender in and of itself, and my case as it stands:

People say that gender is nothing more than a social construct. If that's the case, then the current social aspect of gender is complex and inconsistent. Many of the same people will say that social constructs and norms don't matter. If that's the case with gender, then gender as a whole should not really matter, thus, neither should gender identity, thus, people should just not identify as any gender - or even identify as anything. It should instead come down to only who the individual is when it comes to their own humanistic traits and personality. Furthermore, every cultural representation of what's considered masculine or feminine is different. While there are many commonalities, not every aspect of what's masculine or feminine is going to apply to every culture, especially when you consider the history of things line clothing and hair. Personally, I would say that what could even - on a scientific level - be considered masculine or feminine would have to be things that resonate at the biological level - i.e. what synchronizes best with testosterone and estrogen. Even then, for all we know, some of those activities could be based on human conditioning - depending on the activity or construct in question. Ultimately though, there is always going to be two different definitions of what makes a man or a woman - one biological and one social. So the question ultimately becomes "how does society agree on a rule?" Do we identify only with the common biological and visual traits of what makes a man or a woman that is the simplest way to define someone as one or the other? And if that's so, then why should it matter to people who say that social constructs don't matter? And why would we want to continue to complicate and convolute something that should otherwise be so simple to such a degree that no matter who you talk to, you're probably going to offend someone in your daily life? Ultimately, there are baseline rules of society that ought to be agreed upon by the majority. If they are not, then the society in question starts having challenges when it comes to how it should function, and as humans, whether we live in a tribe or in civilized society, there are always going to be social constructs that get in the way. But in most societies, gender is boiled down to what is considered immutable, probably because they never had to think about it to the extremes that Western society does, because Western society is probably so obsessed with philosophy that we put ourselves in existential crisis over it. Anyway, that's my (admittedly nonsense) thought on gender.

In any case, I hope in the least that my viewpoints and arguments don't come off as rude. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a powerful debater, so I know there will be holes in my argument, and I'm sure you've probably already heard many of such arguments from others. All said, while I may not personally agree with gender ideology, I'm also not the type to go belittling people who may identify any such way as long as they are genuine about it, and I ultimately believe that people should have the right to do what they want with their bodies, so long as they are at an age where they can make those decisions rationally, and are aware of any potential side effects and irreversible changes along the way.
 

CraddaPoosta

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This is going to sound stupid, but, Naruto and 9/11 taught me everything I need to know about how to maybe bring this country back together.

Follow me on this.

It wasn't 9/11. It was the two weeks afterwards. Any adult who remembers this, remembers the look of pain and of loss on EVERY face. For at LEAST two weeks after. Everyone had little American flags on their antenna for their car. EVERYONE was a patriot. There were no strangers. No one in this nation was NOT family. You fuck with one of us, you fuck with ALL of us.

It was the most sadly beautiful thing I have ever seen, to this day. The tragedy beyond the lives lost that day was that we couldn't hold on to that sentiment. We went right back to dividing ourselves and hating each other.

Later in life, I got to experience the tale of the gutsy ninja. It was the Pain arc that taught me a very important lesson, and it tied right into the aftermath of 9/11.

True understanding only comes from understanding another person's pain. THAT is why we all came together after the Towers fell. THAT is why there were no strangers, only equally wounded brothers.

We are an amazing people. We are capable of fucking amazing things. We are too devoted to ourselves, our own images and our own selfish natures.

But, fuck with us. PLEASE fuck with us. Then watch what we can do. Listen for your answer in the thunder.

I know we can do it. We have proven it time and time again. I just wish it didn't REQUIRE shared pain for us to see ourselves in each other.
 

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And this here is the problem, and why we will never see a solution.

As long as we have political cultists like Lacius, completely incapable of seeing the crap of his own party, the US will continue its decline.

Because nothing screems democracy more than saying "lets ban all political parties and ideologies except mine, cause everyone else, except me, is radical and extremist".

I hope you do know that this is exactly how Hitler rose to power, by telling everyone that the others were violent and radical and that they should be banned from politics.

Hitler eventually did what you ask for Lacius, he banned the other political parties because of people like you who gave him the Nobel Peace Prize and clapped like seals when he said that the Jews were oppressing the poor German workers.

So yeah good idea Lacius, lets have the same exact fucking discourse and MO as Hitler did to get to power, that's definitely not authoritarian.

Fighting fire with fire is not going to end well. Right-wing populism, if not conservatism entirely, may be abhorrent to me.
But one-party politics are inherently worse than any conceivable party system.
 

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Fighting fire with fire is not going to end well. Right-wing populism, if not conservatism entirely, may be abhorrent to me.
But one-party politics are inherently worse than any conceivable party system.
Populism is the main selling point of politicians, always have been, it gets them vote.
What's idiotic is always blindly following a single party. BeLIEving that "my party is pure and yours is corrupt", or "I'm always right and you're always wrong" is infantile.

Now if we were to have this conversation 10 years ago, I would agree 100% that it's the right-wingers that are intolerant, don't listen to reason, are conspiranoid nutjobs, etc, etc, etc

But sadly we don't live in the 90's, 2000's or even 2010's, we're in 2022, and in the last few years it has been the left that brought back censorship, political prosecution, insulting other people's ideas, being overall hateful and intolerant.

You can say all you want about the how the super turbo extreme radical mega ultra death right wingers are taking over, but when I go out in the street I see communist flags and symbols flown aroung, not a single nazi one.
 

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I didn't say anything about banning political parties or ideologies, you disingenuous little pissant.

My political party isn't the one rejecting democracy and broadly supporting a violent coup, so I think we both know where you can take the word "authoritarianism" and shove it.

This whole site is a dumpster fire and I generally don't post much here anymore, so the next time you want to quote a post of mine that's nearly two months old only to inadvertently mock yourself, don't. You'll save us both some trouble.
Your political party brought back censorship, usage of insults and ad-hominem attacks against political opponents, openly supporting dictatorships (Cuba, Venezuela, China, etc), just to name a few.

And as long as you keep sucking up to the same political party, you are in no right to call yourself a "democracy supporter".

The idea behind democracy is that everyone gets their voice, not just your party, not just you.
And an even greater idea of democracy is that politicians and ideas have to change (for the same reason that diapers need changing).

Don't call yourself a "progressive" if you never change your mind.
 

CraddaPoosta

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Your political party brought back censorship, usage of insults and ad-hominem attacks against political opponents, openly supporting dictatorships (Cuba, Venezuela, China, etc), just to name a few.

And as long as you keep sucking up to the same political party, you are in no right to call yourself a "democracy supporter".

The idea behind democracy is that everyone gets their voice, not just your party, not just you.
And an even greater idea of democracy is that politicians and ideas have to change (for the same reason that diapers need changing).

Don't call yourself a "progressive" if you never change your mind.
Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Wise words. Unfortunately, we live in an era of thought police, and none of the thought cops understand that "bigotry" means "to so strongly hold onto an idea that one refuses to even entertain any idea to the contrary".

If you require force to ENFORCE your ideology on others, that is the very definition of fascism.
 
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Lacius

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The idea behind democracy is that everyone gets their voice, not just your party, not just you.
Please tell the Republican Party that votes and democracy matter. They're the ones who tried to overturn the last election because they didn't like the results.

You're embarrassing yourself with this "I know you are but what am I?" bullshit.
 

ScaryHobbit

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Populism is the main selling point of politicians, always have been, it gets them vote.
What's idiotic is always blindly following a single party. BeLIEving that "my party is pure and yours is corrupt", or "I'm always right and you're always wrong" is infantile.

Now if we were to have this conversation 10 years ago, I would agree 100% that it's the right-wingers that are intolerant, don't listen to reason, are conspiranoid nutjobs, etc, etc, etc

But sadly we don't live in the 90's, 2000's or even 2010's, we're in 2022, and in the last few years it has been the left that brought back censorship, political prosecution, insulting other people's ideas, being overall hateful and intolerant.

You can say all you want about the how the super turbo extreme radical mega ultra death right wingers are taking over, but when I go out in the street I see communist flags and symbols flown aroung, not a single nazi one.

Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Wise words. Unfortunately, we live in an era of thought police, and none of the thought cops understand that "bigotry" means "to so strongly hold onto an idea that one refuses to even entertain any idea to the contrary".

If you require force to ENFORCE your ideology on others, that is the very definition of fascism.
Very wise points, both of you.
Even so, I argue that the extremism on the Left - and certain forms of extremism on the Right (The mainstream media's MO has been to paint any argument the Right makes as "extremist" - no matter how sensible it actually is) - is merely a symptom of the real problem.

The real group that is trying to destroy America is the corrupt political Swamp. The Swamp is vast - Corrupt politicians, businessmen, corporations, educators, military, idealogues, you name it.
Most importantly, the Swamp is comprised of both Democrats and Republicans, not just one or the other. It is an unholy alliance between Marxists, fascists, corporatists, and globalists of all colors and religions with one singular purpose:
To install a Feudalist system over the entire globe where their select class have total control over every single living thing - and getting fabulously wealthy from it.

In America, this Swamp is centered around both the Clintons and the Bushes - who in turn do the bidding of the likes of corrupt billionares like Klaus Schwab and the World Economic Forum ("You will own nothing, and you will be happy"), who then do the bidding of their own clients, etc, etc, etc, - all in the persuit of wealth.
Presently - the Clintons control the Democrat party, while the Bushes control the Republican party. They rig the elections and actions of their respective parties to both maintain their power, and to keep Americans too hopelessly divided to notice their Constitutional rights and sovereignity being stripped piece by piece.

That's why the Bushes HATE Donald Trump.
Somehow. Trump not only beat their appointed candidates, but also miraculously defeated Hillary Clinton herself to become President.
This has ended up exposing the corruption within the Republican side of the Swamp to the common citizens. And as they are slowly chased out of the party by voters, these corrupt GOP members - including the Bushes - have publically come out in support of the Democrat party - which is still firmly under the Swamp's control.
They're not doing this to appose Trump -they're doing this to put us back in line.

Trump's election also seriously threw off the Swamp's timing, and introduced a slew of new obstacles that were never there before. Millions of people are now aware of what they have done, and what they are doing.
Because of this, their response to try and catch back up has been to go nearly full fucking fascist - a full court press of censorship, gaslighting, debauchery, and policies designed to force millions of people into poverty and dependency.
That's why you see the insanity you see today.
But their strategy is also a double-edge sword - because you can't force someone to go back to sleep when they have become wide awake - you can only kill them, but that alone could wake many more up if done poorly. And the faster they push, the worse it gets for the Swamp... just ask Sri Lanka.
 
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Lumstar

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Aristotle said, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

Wise words. Unfortunately, we live in an era of thought police, and none of the thought cops understand that "bigotry" means "to so strongly hold onto an idea that one refuses to even entertain any idea to the contrary".

If you require force to ENFORCE your ideology on others, that is the very definition of fascism.

From that standpoint, I have criticized the pandemic mandates.
Whether or not I agree with the measures is beside the point, nobody asked me. I never received a ballot seeking my input.
 

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Please tell the Republican Party that votes and democracy matter. They're the ones who tried to overturn the last election because they didn't like the results.

You're embarrassing yourself with this "I know you are but what am I?" bullshit.
You are right, but if you also replace "republican" with "democrat", you will still be right.

Which is why you're a fascist biggot as others have pointed out. You never see the crap in your own party and you use lies, censorship and violence to advance your blood-thirsty ideology.

Any sane person knows that no one political party is 100% pure and free of corruption and that all politicians lie.
You just gotta figure out which one lies the least, and sadly for you, that'd be Trump.

Anyone with a basic background knowledge in the US army knows exactly why Hillary is called Killary. Oh but your party is the party of love and peace, except when they are bombing the hell out of Syria.

Keep your eyes closed, eventually you'll hit yourself with a wall so hard you won't be able to afford being a blind cultist anymore.
 

Acid_Snake

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Very wise points, both of you.
Even so, I argue that the extremism on the Left - and certain forms of extremism on the Right (The mainstream media's MO has been to paint any argument the Right makes as "extremist" - no matter how sensible it actually is) - is merely a symptom of the real problem.

The real group that is trying to destroy America is the corrupt political Swamp. The Swamp is vast - Corrupt politicians, businessmen, corporations, educators, military, idealogues, you name it.
Most importantly, the Swamp is comprised of both Democrats and Republicans, not just one or the other. It is an unholy alliance between Marxists, fascists, corporatists, and globalists of all colors and religions with one singular purpose:
To install a Feudalist system over the entire globe where their select class have total control over every single living thing - and getting fabulously wealthy from it.

In America, this Swamp is centered around both the Clintons and the Bushes - who in turn do the bidding of the likes of corrupt billionares like Klaus Schwab and the World Economic Forum ("You will own nothing, and you will be happy"), who then do the bidding of their own clients, etc, etc, etc, - all in the persuit of wealth.
Presently - the Clintons control the Democrat party, while the Bushes control the Republican party. They rig the elections and actions of their respective parties to both maintain their power, and to keep Americans too hopelessly divided to notice their Constitutional rights and sovereignity being stripped piece by piece.

That's why the Bushes HATE Donald Trump.
Somehow. Trump not only beat their appointed candidates, but also miraculously defeated Hillary Clinton herself to become President.
This has ended up exposing the corruption within the Republican side of the Swamp to the common citizens. And as they are slowly chased out of the party by voters, these corrupt GOP members - including the Bushes - have publically come out in support of the Democrat party - which is still firmly under the Swamp's control.
They're not doing this to appose Trump -they're doing this to put us back in line.

Trump's election also seriously threw off the Swamp's timing, and introduced a slew of new obstacles that were never there before. Millions of people are now aware of what they have done, and what they are doing.
Because of this, their response to try and catch back up has been to go nearly full fucking fascist - a full court press of censorship, gaslighting, debauchery, and policies designed to force millions of people into poverty and dependency.
That's why you see the insanity you see today.
But their strategy is also a double-edge sword - because you can't force someone to go back to sleep when they have become wide awake - you can only kill them, but that alone could wake many more up if done poorly. And the faster they push, the worse it gets for the Swamp... just ask Sri Lanka.
Open up Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, and you'll find an uncanny ressemblance to today's democrat party.
People like Lucius are the perfect idiot that back in the day saluted Hitler without thinking twice about it.

Critical Race Theory uses the same antiscientific ideas that the Nazis used to talk about race. Nevermind the fact that scientists are tired of telling these racists idiots that humans don't have races.

Replace the word "Jew" or the word "proletariat" with "cis white men" and "patriarchy" in any of Hitler's discourse and you'll have every democrat's way of thinking.
 
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smf

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For at LEAST two weeks after. Everyone had little American flags on their antenna for their car. EVERYONE was a patriot. There were no strangers.
Sure, people even overlooked Rudy Giuliani....

But that kind of flag waving patriotism where you pretend that you all agree is temporary.

Nevermind the fact that scientists are tired of telling these racists idiots that humans don't have races.
There are genetic traits that were more successful in certain parts of the world though.
Like sickle cell anemia, which protects you from malaria.
 
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smf

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Doesn't HAVE to be. But it was beautiful while it lasted.
It does, because people assume that everyone agrees with them and then they act like dicks.

If on January the 6th 2021, those people had been thinking "I believe the election was stolen, but look at all these people who disagree & maybe they are right" then it is unlikely things would have kicked off they way they did.
 

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@Acid_Snake
  • The Democratic Party didn't try to overturn an election they didn't like, with or without violence.
  • Fascism is a far-right and authoritarian ideology (i.e. Trump). I'm far-left and pro-democracy. By no definition am I a fascist.
  • Name one group I'm bigoted against. The right-wing nutjobs in the US who are prejudiced against people of color, LGBT people, etc. are the bigots. By no definition am I a bigot.
  • I never said any party was "pure" or "free from corruption." However, the corruption on the right far exceeds the corruption on the left. The former president was demonstrably one of the most corrupt presidents we've ever had.
  • The former president is infamous for being one of the biggest liars in American history.
  • If you dig deep enough, you can find plenty of criticisms of Hillary Clinton's foreign policy by me on this forum. That doesn't change the fact that the Democratic Party is by far less hawkish than the Republican Party. I'm wondering if you have a point.
With respect, you sound ridiculous.
 

Creamu

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  • The Democratic Party didn't try to overturn an election they didn't like, with or without violence.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt (/ˈdɛlənoʊ/;[1][2] /ˈroʊzəˌvɛlt, -vəlt/[3][4] ROH-zə-velt, -⁠vəlt; January 30, 1882 – April 12, 1945), often referred to by his initials FDR, was an American politician and attorney who served as the 32nd president of the United States from 1933 until his death in 1945. As a member of the Democratic Party [...]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franklin_D._Roosevelt
 
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