Oklahoma Republican proposes that any provider who provides gender affirming care to 26 year olds or younger is a felony

[PrincessLillie]

Of course it is. It couldn't be because they need mental help. Big Pharma needs more billions in profits for lifelong patients and you have your narrative to push. Trans people are not the problem. It's people like you who deny them the mental health care they need who are the problem. These people's bodies are completely healthy and there is zero reasons to be performing irreversible surgeries on them.

Being transgender is not a mental disorder. Any sane, reputable mental professional would agree, and would suggest their patient to pursue hormone therapy at an informed consent clinic. Any "professional" who tries to place an individual into conversion therapy deserves to have their license revoked.
Hormone therapy is affordable and covered by the majority of insurance providers. If you truly have a problem with "Big Pharma", perhaps you should fight to lower the price of other critical medication like insulin.

Those detransitioners are coming out on their own. Me sharing their stories is not weaponizing it. That's just you not being able to handle different information outside of your narrative.

The reality is that detransitioners represent less than 1% of individuals. The majority of trans people go on to lead happy, healthy lives. The minority that do detransition, often do so because of social pressure. There's also the fact that large parts of the detrans community are just plain transphobic.

 

[The Catboy]

Of course it is. It couldn't be because they need mental help. Big Pharma needs more billions in profits for lifelong patients and you have your narrative to push. Trans people are not the problem. It's people like you who deny them the mental health care they need who are the problem. These people's bodies are completely healthy and there is zero reasons to be performing irreversible surgeries on them.

The left's entire argument for abortion is based off of extremely small circumstances. We're gonna use the same standards here. Sorry, but Dem the rules.

Those detransitioners are coming out on their own. Me sharing their stories is not weaponizing it. That's just you not being able to handle different information outside of your narrative.

I can tell you didn’t read anything I posted and just decided to default to your normal nonsense. Is everything you don’t like some kind of leftist agenda?

 

[LainaGabranth]

Are we still pretending the right has literally anything to say that matters about minorities?

 

[Deleted member 559230]

Are we still pretending the right has literally anything to say that matters about minorities?

Are will still pretending there's more than 2 sexes?

 

[PZT]

Of course it is. It couldn't be because they need mental help. Big Pharma needs more billions in profits for lifelong patients and you have your narrative to push. Trans people are not the problem. It's people like you who deny them the mental health care they need who are the problem. These people's bodies are completely healthy and there is zero reasons to be performing irreversible surgeries on them.

The left's entire argument for abortion is based off of extremely small circumstances. We're gonna use the same standards here. Sorry, but Dem the rules.

Those detransitioners are coming out on their own. Me sharing their stories is not weaponizing it. That's just you not being able to handle different information outside of your narrative.

secede from the union with all the other mentally ill fascist morality police and leave us normal people alone please
all we have ever done is mind our own business but people like you keep sticking your noses in our ass
the only reason anybody would disallow young people from transitioning is because they hate us and they want us to be ugly motherfuckers so they can pick us out of a crowd and ridicule us more easily, anyone who says otherwise is either gullible enough believe the concern trolling or they're just lying to themselves
people like you are the problem and continue to be the problem
god forbid we're allowed to live happy lives and be 5 feet tall instead of 6 feet tall
cis people should never say anything about gender ever again it's a loaded weapon and they don't even have the consideration to handle it with the safety on because they're incurious about everything
vapid so-called "free thinkers" stop turning our lives into a debate we're not interested in having and leave us alone

 

[Deleted member 571007]

Seriously, why can't people remain civil in literally any political related thread. Getting into flame-wars and resorting to insults accomplishes nothing but making the issue worse. I understand disagreeing, we all have differences; but if we're unable to discuss them in a civil manner, then just lock the thread atp.

 

[RetroGen]

If you looked at the literature, you'd see that the suicide rate post-op is around 50%. These people do not suffer from a physical ailment. They suffer from a mental condition. There is nothing physically wrong with their bodies.

Where is this specific claim in the literature? Please provide an exact quote. I've looked through the article posted and have seen that the suicide rate for transgender adolescents is (understandably) high, but not seeing anything connected with higher rates post-gender affirmation surgery. It seems that suicide rates in such individuals are correlated with gender dysphoria and that gender dysphoria is mitigated by hormone therapy and gender affirmation. Where is the evidence to the contrary that you claim?

 

[PrincessLillie]

Seriously, why can't people remain civil in literally any political related thread. Getting into flame-wars and resorting to insults accomplishes nothing but making the issue worse. I understand disagreeing, we all have differences; but if we're unable to discuss them in a civil manner, then just lock the thread atp.

Unfortunately that's the nature of the internet, any debate where opinions differ will eventually devolve into insults and flame wars. Moreso if it's related to politics in any way. Completely civil online debates simply aren't possible anymore.

 

[PZT]

Seriously, why can't people remain civil in literally any political related thread. Getting into flame-wars and resorting to insults accomplishes nothing but making the issue worse. I understand disagreeing, we all have differences; but if we're unable to discuss them in a civil manner, then just lock the thread atp.

this website shouldn't even have a politics forum all it does is invite armchair doofuses to opine about stuff that does not impact them and they know nothing about

 

[Deleted member 571007]

Unfortunately that's the nature of the internet, any debate where opinions differ will eventually devolve into insults and flame wars. Moreso if it's related to politics in any way. Completely civil online debates simply aren't possible anymore.

Sadly true, and I wish it wasn't like that -- and I get being passionate about what you believe in, I really do. But people are going to disagree, and that's just a fact of life. Not everyone was brought up the same way, nor have they experienced the same things; and this is bound to cause variance between beliefs. But I still don't think that should be reason enough to become aggressive simply because you have a difference in ideals or beliefs. I'm not gonna try and act like I'm perfect, I've gotten angry and threw insults left and right in the past- but it never helps anything, it just ends up aggravating both sides even further. I genuinely think that if people were able to discuss or voice their beliefs in conjuncture with others in a civil manner, a lot of the hostility could be avoided. But sadly, not everyone's first reaction is a calm one; and this goes for both sides. Not just one.

this website shouldn't even have a politics forum all it does is invite armchair doofuses to opine about stuff that does not impact them and they know nothing about

I do kind of agree here, but at the same time - no one forces anyone to come to this section, and there's also settings to block it from your feed entirely. Coming to the political section, whether it be to post, read, or comment on content is a completely voluntary action. But I get that when people see something that they disagree, especially if it impacts them or others around them that it can be easy to get defensive, but that doesn't mean people have to engage, or provoke others. Even if it seems that they're 100% in the wrong.

 

[PZT]

they're allowed to go constantly shooting their mouth off about stuff they found out days ago because the Youtube algorithm pushed a video on them of some guy looking enraged in a thumbnail, but the moment we get angry because we actually have a stake in it and this is our lives we're talking about suddenly we're being uncivil
the whole idea that trans rights should be some kind of "civil debate" is an invention of their making that they created to maliciously police our lives
their ideas are not their own, they are the product of social engineering leveraged through social media sites to create a wedge issue and divide the working class, they are the REAL "social contagion"
their ideas are not worth engaging with because for every one doofus you convince through hours of wasting your life away kicking a wall, there are millions of others ready to take their place, like a musou game where defeating a single enemy takes half an afternoon, why even play at that point
ten years ago when I started taking HRT I was much more willing to hear people out and try to convince them because I hadn't realized how utterly ridiculous and Sisyphean even trying to talk sense into them is, but now? lmao
their existence is provocation, they are obsessed with us and making new hoops for us to jump through to make us more miserable and then they delude themselves into thinking they're helping when they're actually burning everything down
no tolerance for intolerance

Post automatically merged: Jan 18, 2023

the honest truth is that debating these nerds is self-harm and their ideas are less than worthless

 

[Deleted member 571007]

That's not what I was saying at all, and if you read more closely to what I said I stated that the uncivility comes from both sides. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone specifically, but the problem doesn't come from one specific group of people. It comes from everyone, and the core aspect of disagreement. Like I said, people won't always agree; and that'll always be a universal concept among humans. We're all different, we've been raised different ways, we've experienced life in different ways, and as such people's views will differ astronomically. As such, you're entitled to your own views, and the right to defend said views. However I do not believe that people are entitled to hostility.

But as I was saying, just because there's a base of disagreement, does not mean that ANY side is entitled to hostility immediately. Some people may just be misinformed, or led to believe things a certain way. I'm actually very Pro-Trans - hell I'm Trans myself, but I also accept that Transgenderism is an enigma within the fields of both Mental Health, and Physiology. I do genuinely think that there is science that is able to back up Transgenderism, but it's also such a misunderstood topic covered in bias from both sides. We're not even close to understanding all the nuances of it, and while I agree it can be annoying to see people go on constantly about information that may be wrong, or topics that don't affect them in the way that it does others. But once again, going into the situation with hostility as the primary intent only makes it worse.

 

[Deleted member 586536]

That's not what I was saying at all, and if you read more closely to what I said I stated that the uncivility comes from both sides.

Eeeh. False diconomy.
Here's why:
One sides position is essentially directly killing people. (Legislation counts. If you suddenly legislated that people can't get insluin until a certain age. They would be dead. If you legislated that people can't ever get anti depressents. Those people have a greater risk of suicide. It may not be by a gun. But the cause of that death can be linked to that action)
The other side is unclear. People that support trans people very from moderate right but left of the Republican party. (Democrats) to leftists, like, get rid of capitalism leftist.

If the other side your talking about (implied two sides) is (not party but voters) Democrats They often reasonably say that this is wrong, humantiarianly speaking. They don't want people to suffer. While leftists (actual) is even harsher stance about it.
So to then see a group of people branziley wear that on their shirt, that they hate a certain group of people. To see them time and time again ignore their peers and double on harming and injurying a group of people over and over again. At somepoint, the line is drawn. The Republican party (both voters and politicians) know it's hurting trans people. Or been told it. Yes there is a discussion about being stuck information silos. That is a entirely different discussion. Since there's quite a few who got stuck in them.
But there has to be a point where a line must be drawn. Even if the circumstances as to why that person is the way they are is because of a silo.
But saying "both sides is the problem" is not insightful, and ignores the fact that it's one side actively targeting another group of people in a calous way. It helps absolutely no one.
I hope this comes off as respectful but blunt. I don't have any beef with you.

 

[Wolfy]

If you ask me, the age limit should be the onset of puberty, as defined in the WPATH Standards of Care. Denying anybody access to gender-affirming care, especially younger people, puts lives at risk. Puberty blockers and hormones have shown not to be harmful, so there's no reason to deny them.

Kids have enough things they deal with growing up, in addition to going through puberty. As no one can speak for the entirety of a population, but kids are usually accepting of multiple ideas. Nothing is an issue unless they get it into their minds that something is wrong by way of other kids or parents they may have heard it from. Curiosity sparks thought, but isn't there enough for them to worry about at a young age? Being comfortable in ones own skin is what most people are taught, and although people aren't limited normally to getting tattoos, piercings, and the etc... Those are very temporary things that a lot of kids tend to try as it isn't a lasting change, especially for young people when they can change again and again throughout their early years.

But saying "both sides is the problem" is not insightful, and ignores the fact that it's one side actively targeting another group of people in a calous way. It helps absolutely no one.
I hope this comes off as respectful but blunt. I don't have any beef with you.

Not insightful? Yeah you right, but still true because there's too many factors in the US to easily fix literally any issue. A simple voting in of a certain person, whoever they are, whatever they represent, they will piss off some one or some group of individuals and most likely still fail to make a lasting mark on the country. We're too far gone I think in a lot of ways.

 

[VashTS]

How could it possibly be a felony? It’s elective therapy. Nobody is *forcing* you into gender-affirming care. The point is to allow it, but allow it at a point when its requirement is definite so as to prevent unintended harm. We don’t allow children to drink, drive or do a variety of other things because they’re not fully developed, and this includes their identity. Once it is fully formed, providing care is *expected*, it’s the entire point of the medical profession. Doctors often refuse permanently life-changing elective procedures below a certain age on the off-chance that the patient regrets their rash decision later in life. Heck, we had one poster like that in this thread.

im not saying it should be and i think thats the problem with politics in general. lawmakers need to just decide and make it either a yes or no, either all of it is a felony or none of it is a felony. the qualifiers cause it to be controversial because you can apply opinion.

my opinion is you should get whatever health care you may need and that should never be a felony

 

[sombrerosonic]

Seriously, why can't people remain civil in literally any political related thread. Getting into flame-wars and resorting to insults accomplishes nothing but making the issue worse. I understand disagreeing, we all have differences; but if we're unable to discuss them in a civil manner, then just lock the thread atp.

TBH this is really most threads after a while . Most threads either die out or become Trans v.s. Anti-Trans for some fucking reason, Look at the ukrane thread's last few post and tell me that it didn't devolve into that.

If only most of you fuckers can stop being dicks to people

 

[Xerokard]

Fun Fact: 55% of trans women who have bottom surgery are in so much pain they need medical care years later, and up to a third struggle to use the toilet or have sex

 

[Deleted member 571007]

@Nothereed I get your point, and I don't mean to be dismissive by just stating 'it's both sides', and I know that it's not an overly helpful statement -- but at the same time, there is some truth to it. Like I said, people disagree, it'll always happen, and I do believe that everyone should be entitled to what they believe in. But I do know that people are being hurt by certain legislation decisions, and it's not like I'm blind to it either. Some people simply have bias, and cannot see past that for the life of them. But when I say 'both sides", it's not like I'm actually distinctly drawing a line and pointing blame at both of them. I just mean that people in general, they can fail to see a lot about a situation; especially when their beliefs are involved.. and that can turn into people getting defensive and hostile, no matter what beliefs you actually hold. Which, in my honest opinion, when people get hostile to protect their beliefs (which I understand why, I do, people feel threatened and it can feel like the only way to be heard) it instantly crushes any chance you have of being heard by anyone other than another person who already follows your line of thinking. Humans are typically one of the most stubborn possible species imaginable, even when presented with a problem, they generally do all they can to avoid change, or to outright stop things they don't want or understand from happening- which plays into what we're seeing right now.

Let me make it clear, like I said before; I am Pro-Trans. But I also still accept that we still genuinely don't know that much about it, and this is going to cause confusion, fear, and general misunderstanding. Not everyone's going to understand, and a lot of the people who don't understand something, probably won't accept it either. I don't agree with passing legislation that may lead to harming a group of people, and I don't agree with denying care for people that may actually need it. But even with one side on the matter actively working against the other, wouldn't it still be counter-intuitive to respond with hostility? I get that most people even if you respond calmly may not even listen to you in the first place, but granting that ammunition just gives them all the more reason to work against you in their mind. Because with their line of thinking, it'd basically be justifying everything they thought before, even if it may be wrong. But with topics as complex as Transgenderism, not everyone is going to be understanding and accepting, and I wish we could change that easily, or fast- but it won't, which means it'll have to take time.

I hope this comes off as respectful but blunt. I don't have any beef with you.

Trust me, it's fine. I enjoy seeing other view-points, and talking with people about them; and I get that this is a heated issue with a lot riding on it for some people- and I saw some of your posts about your partner (I'm sorry btw, I hope your situation gets better), which means that I know you have a personal stake in it as well. Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and the right to defend them. But my point is, I just wish that everyone was able to discuss them with civility. Because, at least in my opinion, hostility will never send us forward with understanding, especially against people who already don't understand.

 

[TraderPatTX]

Being transgender is not a mental disorder. Any sane, reputable mental professional would agree, and would suggest their patient to pursue hormone therapy at an informed consent clinic. Any "professional" who tries to place an individual into conversion therapy deserves to have their license revoked.
Hormone therapy is affordable and covered by the majority of insurance providers. If you truly have a problem with "Big Pharma", perhaps you should fight to lower the price of other critical medication like insulin.

It's called gender dysphoria despite how you feel about it. The science is settled.

The reality is that detransitioners represent less than 1% of individuals. The majority of trans people go on to lead happy, healthy lives. The minority that do detransition, often do so because of social pressure. There's also the fact that large parts of the detrans community are just plain transphobic.

You actually attacked trans people as being transphobic. You're movement has officially jumped the shark.

Post automatically merged: Jan 18, 2023

I can tell you didn’t read anything I posted and just decided to default to your normal nonsense. Is everything you don’t like some kind of leftist agenda?

Not necessarily leftist, but there is an agenda and a psyop being pushed on all of us.

Post automatically merged: Jan 18, 2023

Are will still pretending there's more than 2 sexes?

Bisexual people believe in only 2 sexes or genders.

Post automatically merged: Jan 18, 2023

secede from the union with all the other mentally ill fascist morality police and leave us normal people alone please
all we have ever done is mind our own business but people like you keep sticking your noses in our ass
the only reason anybody would disallow young people from transitioning is because they hate us and they want us to be ugly motherfuckers so they can pick us out of a crowd and ridicule us more easily, anyone who says otherwise is either gullible enough believe the concern trolling or they're just lying to themselves
people like you are the problem and continue to be the problem
god forbid we're allowed to live happy lives and be 5 feet tall instead of 6 feet tall
cis people should never say anything about gender ever again it's a loaded weapon and they don't even have the consideration to handle it with the safety on because they're incurious about everything
vapid so-called "free thinkers" stop turning our lives into a debate we're not interested in having and leave us alone

This response shows you are definitely a well balanced individual. Imagine getting this upset at somebody suggesting people with gender dysphoria go seek mental help instead of getting irreversible surgery.

You don't want to debate because your arguments are weak and emotional. I would hate debating too if I were you.

Post automatically merged: Jan 18, 2023

Where is this specific claim in the literature? Please provide an exact quote. I've looked through the article posted and have seen that the suicide rate for transgender adolescents is (understandably) high, but not seeing anything connected with higher rates post-gender affirmation surgery. It seems that suicide rates in such individuals are correlated with gender dysphoria and that gender dysphoria is mitigated by hormone therapy and gender affirmation. Where is the evidence to the contrary that you claim?

@Nothereed I get your point, and I don't mean to be dismissive by just stating 'it's both sides', and I know that it's not an overly helpful statement -- but at the same time, there is some truth to it. Like I said, people disagree, it'll always happen, and I do believe that everyone should be entitled to what they believe in. But I do know that people are being hurt by certain legislation decisions, and it's not like I'm blind to it either. Some people simply have bias, and cannot see past that for the life of them. But when I say 'both sides", it's not like I'm actually distinctly drawing a line and pointing blame at both of them. I just mean that people in general, they can fail to see a lot about a situation; especially when their beliefs are involved.. and that can turn into people getting defensive and hostile, no matter what beliefs you actually hold. Which, in my honest opinion, when people get hostile to protect their beliefs (which I understand why, I do, people feel threatened and it can feel like the only way to be heard) it instantly crushes any chance you have of being heard by anyone other than another person who already follows your line of thinking. Humans are typically one of the most stubborn possible species imaginable, even when presented with a problem, they generally do all they can to avoid change, or to outright stop things they don't want or understand from happening- which plays into what we're seeing right now.

Let me make it clear, like I said before; I am Pro-Trans. But I also still accept that we still genuinely don't know that much about it, and this is going to cause confusion, fear, and general misunderstanding. Not everyone's going to understand, and a lot of the people who don't understand something, probably won't accept it either. I don't agree with passing legislation that may lead to harming a group of people, and I don't agree with denying care for people that may actually need it. But even with one side on the matter actively working against the other, wouldn't it still be counter-intuitive to respond with hostility? I get that most people even if you respond calmly may not even listen to you in the first place, but granting that ammunition just gives them all the more reason to work against you in their mind. Because with their line of thinking, it'd basically be justifying everything they thought before, even if it may be wrong. But with topics as complex as Transgenderism, not everyone is going to be understanding and accepting, and I wish we could change that easily, or fast- but it won't, which means it'll have to take time.



Trust me, it's fine. I enjoy seeing other view-points, and talking with people about them; and I get that this is a heated issue with a lot riding on it for some people- and I saw some of your posts about your partner (I'm sorry btw, I hope your situation gets better), which means that I know you have a personal stake in it as well. Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and the right to defend them. But my point is, I just wish that everyone was able to discuss them with civility. Because, at least in my opinion, hostility will never send us forward with understanding, especially against people who already don't understand.

@Nothereed believes anybody they disagree with is a murdering fascist. Anything they said can be completely disregarded, including all of their threads which are meant to incite flame wars. I can't even count the number of times they have called me a nazi. It's a running joke at this point. If you don't completely agree with them, you will be deemed a nazi too. You can count on it.

 

[RetroGen]

@Nothereed I get your point, and I don't mean to be dismissive by just stating 'it's both sides', and I know that it's not an overly helpful statement -- but at the same time, there is some truth to it. Like I said, people disagree, it'll always happen, and I do believe that everyone should be entitled to what they believe in.

I don't agree with this.

People have their own subjective feelings, but they are not rationally entitled to believe their own personal set of facts about reality (or subjective "truth"), especially if falsified by the preponderance of evidence. What I'm advocating is civil, rational, discourse, where people agree to abide by the rules of logic and to be moved by the weight of the evidence. An implication of this is that anyone involved in such discourse must willingly give up any false beliefs they have brought forth once evidence shows them to in error (this is a crucial aspect of rationality). However, sadly, as seen in this thread, some participants will refuse such stipulations regarding the requirements of logic and evidence and continue to repeat false claims over and over, in spite of evidence to the contrary, seemingly based on a feeling of entitlement to their own version of reality/truth, and it is readily apparent that discussions can never make meaningful progress when engaging with interlocutors employing that strategy. If this discussion were based upon logic and facts, such voices would have been silenced after a few posts.