Bad Video Game Writing

[zeello]

I wouldn't sound like that if you would actually bring a legit argument for why MGS writing is bad. All you say is ridiculous stuff like "big script = bad", "complex deep characters = bad" which is complete nonsense.

I never said complex or deep characters are bad, I'm just not convinced that it excuses having such a bloated script.

 

[Gahars]

The story itself is ok, it could hold itself up well enough for Fallout

Even then...

 

[CathyRina]

I never said complex or deep characters are bad, I'm just not convinced that it excuses having such a bloated script.

And I'm not convinced that you have any legit arguments of why the script is bad other than your own opinion.

 

[Taleweaver]

One of the things I find perplexing is why stories in games seem to matter to people. Sure, I know plenty of examples of games with a good story, and some games even go to the point of blending in with books so much it combines just marvelously (999 comes to mind, though I'm sure there are many dozens that fit the description).

But that said...why do you play games? I usually just want to PLAY the game. Mario games keep repeating the same paper thin plot twist over and over, but it doesn't bother anyone. Sure, there's some laughter from even the players themselves, but it's not like anyone is not going to buy the game for that reason.

And even the bad 'Engrish' translations have their place. They're like those old, badly lip-synced Oriental fighting movies: somewhat of a cult phenomenon. Come to think of it...why is this sort of writing not seen more often? It's campy, cheesy, retarded and ridiculously fun exactly because of it. (the answer to that latter question is probably "check the indie scene more!"...games like retro city rampage do that stuff for breakfast).


The thing with "bad writing" is probably best described as "campy going wrong". And that is somehow reminiscent of movies, for that matter. Horror movies and slashers are best when they're low budget, or made to look like it (Planet terror is a good example). I already explained in a 'games you shouldn't buy' review why unreal tournament 3 had terrible writing. Not so much because of the script in itself, but because the rest of the game looked so darn realistic. It didn't look campy or cheesy in the slightest, and that's why it failed.

But on the plus side...at least it wasn't Duke Nukem forever (linky...though you may want to skip to 5:30).


For anything else...yeah, it's been touched upon by many before me. And I tend to agree: quite some games just have TOO MUCH story. I haven't properly played through other M or FF13 to give a proper impression, but going by what others say, quite some of those long and costly cutscènes were better off not being there in the first place. And perhaps I'm turning into a indie-loving snob, but I think that way of most expensive cutscènes. They rarely add stuff.
-when comparing diablo 3 with torchlight 2 (which is pretty hard NOT to do), the former very clearly has the best cutscènes. But in the end, I couldn't bring myself to care about ANYTHING that was going on.
-From red alert 3, I found myself being pretty embarrassed by the cutscènes. It's a gripe I have with most HD stuff, come to think of it. All that details just make it clear that it's just actors standing in a carbon board decor. I actually found the original C&C movies more engaging (though that may have been to do with that I was younger then)
-bioshock infinite may have one of the best endings in recent years, but most everything up to that point was stuff I just wanted to skip. It had the worst kinds of cutscènes: the unskippable ones that were disguised as an elevator that just kept on going.


(yeah, I'll probably get some disagreeing comments because I'm implying that bioshock infinite has a bad plot, but meh...I can live with it)

 

[Hyro-Sama]

There's no reason as to why games cannot have both satisfying gameplay and narratives. Saying, "Well, games are games. They don't need compelling stories so long as the gameplay is good." is just ignorant.

 

[Pedeadstrian]

Citizen Snips!

What Newman said.

Also: Games and their stories cover a broad spectrum. At one end of the spectrum you have something like Angry Birds, where there is no story (well, there is, but come on, I can't bear to call it a story). On the other are games like 999 where the story is the main focus, and the gameplay is only to immerse the player even more, making them feel like they're the ones that are making the decisions. Of course, you could even include visual novels that have literally no gameplay, but I'm not exactly sure if those are even/can even be defined as games. Like you said, you may be on a indie game bender, where gameplay is more of a focus than story is, and that's fine, but I and a lot of other people prefer games like RPGs, where the story is a big focus, and sometimes the main one. No one in this situation is wrong. One of my favorite games of all time is Xenosaga 3, and at times, it feels like I'm watching an actual movie. 20+ minute cutscenes are obviously not for everyone, but I loved it. I can't speak for everyone, but when I grow attached to characters, whether they be from movies, tv shows, books, or video games, I want to learn more about them. Cutscenes are a great way to do that.

 

[zeello]

And I'm not convinced that you have any legit arguments of why the script is bad other than your own opinion.

my argument is that if I play a game I do not want a movie. If anything trying to shoehorn a movie into a game just shows you have a low opinion of games

and I wasnt trying to drag my opinion into it, just raising an objective point, regardless of how poorly I may explain it. Writing for theater is different from writing for film, and different from writing a book, etc. Writing a 3-panel daily strip is different from writing a comic book.

Its rather arrogant in a way to put your contribution to a work above the overall quality of the work. Imagine if every staff member did that and not just the writer.

 

[Taleweaver]

There's no reason as to why games cannot have both satisfying gameplay and narratives. Saying, "Well, games are games. They don't need compelling stories so long as the gameplay is good." is just ignorant.

The error in that quote is in the fact that all games get lumped up on one heap rather than dividing them into different genres into which it matters into different degrees...and not in the assumed fact that a compelling story is needed. Most 3D shooters aren't bought for the story, so it hardly matters. On the other hand, the majority of RPG's pretty much hinge on the story (visual novels even more). It's a bit shortsighted, but an RPG with a bad story is sort of like a shooter with bad weapons.

And to draw a completely different analogy: I buy most of my stuff without it having a story. This glass that's on my desk? It may have a very freaking compelling story on how it evolved from the sands of some distant shore where it got collected, burned into molten glass that was forged into the glass it is, how it got shipped to a factory, a store and finally in my hands...but I don't give a damn about it. It won't make a better glass because of it, even though there is no reason why it cannot both be a good container for drinking liquids and have a strong compelling narrative.

 

[CathyRina]

my argument is that if I play a game I do not want a movie. If anything trying to shoehorn a movie into a game if anything just shows you have a low opinion of games

and I wasnt trying to drag my opinion into it, just raising an objective point, regardless of how poorly I may explain it. Writing for theater is different from writing for film, and different from writing a book, etc. Writing a 3-panel daily strip is different from writing a comic book.

Its rather arrogant in a way to put your contribution to a work above the overall quality of the work. Imagine if every staff member did that and not just the writer.

But the writer, in this case, is the director of the game... he literally sets the bar of the overall quality of the work. That's why there is a skip cutscene button since like forever. That's why cut scenes have checkpoints positioned in a way so you can skip canon excuses, which are slideshows anyway and continue with the actual plot while skipping good 10-30 minutes. The Writer is fully aware of the fact that these cutscenes are long and unappealing to some, it would be dumb if he wouldn't but he also doesn't want to make many parts of his script optional at least back in the day he did. But back in the day he also did MGS2 which was the biggest troll move in the entire gaming community. If you don't like the length of these cutscenes then is fully subjective. There is no objectivity in saying the cutscenes are too long when they are technically good, exiting and enjoyable to watch. No one ever created a rule saying that VG cutscenes have to be as short as possible. That's why they work so well in MGS. Back in the day on PS1 it was mind blowing having a fully narrated game with a really good movie style story with gameplay sections in between. It was like playing a game and watching a movie simultaneously.
And Kojima prodictions is aware that long cutscenes turn people off. That's why they literally said that the series innovates itself. That's why Peace Walker and Phantom Pain have and will have relatively shorter cutscenes while focusing more on the gameplay. That's why the Guys behind Monster hunter, a game with technically no plot and full focus on gameplay, helped Kojipro with peace walker to create bossfights that can be tackled in Co-op. That's why Kojipro released Ground Zeroes. It's not a 30$ 2H demo like most people probably like to call it but rather as a 5 hours game where you spend most of the time not watching cutscenes but actually playing the game. This time around without any collaborations. Heck most of the story in Ground Zeroes is a unlockble and can be listened to while playing the game. If they had added the parts you listen to as cutscenes the game would've been a hour longer and less people would bitch about how short Ground zeroes is. Again, a obvious downgrade made for the sake of increasing the time you spend playing the game. And both Peace Walker and Phantom Pain will and already have a ungodly amount of replay value. Which is a obvious positive from a gamplay standpoint.

 

[zeello]

you don't know how long a cutscene is before skipping it. If a cutscene is only 10 seconds more then I'd like to wait it out. if its 30 minutes more then I wish I had skipped it ssooner. If I skip ANY cutscenes for that matter it would have been better to do so at the very beginning of the cutscene, not watch half of it only to skip the rest.

skipping cutscenes is not an excuse. Its there as a last resort and means something is wrong with the cutscenes. Its like if a game had terrible voice acting that makes you skip the cutscenes, but since you can skip them you give the acting a 10/10 saying ' they can be skipped anyway'. Also the problem is. what if I don't skip the cutscenes? What if I wait it out but my experience suffers as a result?

OK so you admitted mgs2 is not great.

Do you not think that MGS is a series that has not handled popularity gracefully? MGS was a runaway success "hmm people like cutscenes, let's have even more of them" and it just goes out of control because nobody is willing to say when too much is too much and someone does they are silenced or ppl attempt to ridicule that person.

we can agree that its objectively bad if a cutscene is too long. But whether a cutscene is too long or not is subjective.

Being exciting to watch is no excuse. By that logic you could just stock a game s narrative with all your favorite movies. Its basically your underlying argument.The writing is good in a vacuum and that trumps all. You might as well interrupt the game with cat videos from YouTube, and excerpts from Twilight books because Kojima likes Twilight and it's his game damn it. All that matters is that those cat videos are exciting to watch.

"have and will have shorter cutscenes" OK soooo I had a point?

"MGS games are the greatest and Kojima ia a great man and not afraid to ask for help but can do anything by himself" OK OK but I only mentioned the writing. And I have not played Peace Walker except the demo but found issues with the controls/camera. (and the fact you can't pause the game, which I hear isnt like that in the full game but nonetheless doesnt improve my confidence in the full product, even more so considering everything I already know about mgs series)

 

[CathyRina]

you don't know how long a cutscene is before skipping it.

But now that I told you that slideshows in these games are basically used to explain canon, which you shouldn't care about unless you like headaches, you can easily skip those.

OK so you admitted mgs2 is not great.

No I didn't. It's one of the first games I have ever seen and my favorite MGS game. What I meant is that given the context of the day back then I can understand why averyone was pissed at this game. It wasn't because it's a bad game or anything like that but rather because Kojima decided to be smart and predict what gaming in the future will be about. a hype train manipulating the fans into wanting a game through limited information. It's a post modern game after all. What MGS2 did on purpose was done out of covered up stupidity in FF13. I can talk hours about that. But how about I link a video that spends time talking about that.

Do you not think that MGS is a series that has not handled popularity gracefully? MGS was a runaway success "hmm people like cutscenes, let's have even more of them" and it just goes out of control because nobody is willing to say when too much is too much and someone does they are silenced or ppl attempt to ridicule that person.

Dude, you can also be someone who says digimon is equally awesome as pokemon and you still get shitstormed to death by pokeboys no matter how right you might be. That's life on the internet, yo.

we can agree that its objectively bad if a cutscene is too long.

we can't. Because it isn't. There are no guidelines saying how long a cutscene has to be. If you don't like it it's your taste, nothing else.

Being exciting to watch is no excuse. By that logic you could just stock a game s narrative with all your favorite movies. Its basically your underlying argument.The writing is good in a vacuum and that trumps all. You might as well interrupt the game with cat videos from YouTube, and excerpts from Twilight books because Kojima likes Twilight and it's his game damn it. He has full creative control and that makes the game his soap box.

I don't get your point here.

"have and will have shorter cutscenes" OK soooo I had a point?

Developers want to make money. There is a certain amount of things that need change for mass appeal. The sales broke records with MGS 1 for PS1 and remained steady for the main releases since. A company obviously wants to grow and expand the audience while trying to balance things out. MGS having long cutscenes isn't perfect but it's far from being objectively bad. if for every 3 people liking long cutscenes there is one disliking the cutscenes then it's obvious that a company should try to appeal to all four people. In other word, they try to appeal to people like you while not fucking up for people like me and after playing Ground Zeroes and Peace Walker I'm convinced that they do a good job about that.

"MGS games are the greatest and Kojima ia a great man and not afraid to ask for help but can do anything by himself"

I haven't said that

OK OK but I only mentioned the writing. And I have not played Peace Walker except the demo but found issues with the controls/camera. (and the fact you can't pause the game, which I hear isnt like that in the full game but nonetheless reeks of MGS series up to its usual antics and only serves to discourage me from getting there full game)

It is pausable if played solo. In multiplayer it obviously isn't. I can't tell how the controls were on the PSP but given the fact that it has 2 less buttons a one less stick I assume it was bad. Play the HD version then. It on both PS3 and 360.

 

[zeello]

I don't get your point here.

You're saying it doesn't matter if the cutscenes are too long for a game. You're saying all it matters is that they cutscenes are fun to watch but I disagree.

If a game is a visual novel then its OK for the cutscenes to be much much longer. But since MGS is not then different rules apply. It does not matter how good the cutscenes are in a vacuum because aside from good writing I want a good game and if the writing makes the game worse then its arguably bad writing.

Developers want to make money. There is a certain amount of things that need change for mass appeal.

so not only I had point but I was objectively right?

.if for every 3 people liking long cutscenes there is one disliking the cutscenes then it's obvious that a company should try to appeal to all four people.

The wants of the four are not mutually exclusive. The 3 won't suddenly hate MGS series if the cutscenes were a little shorter. Likewise if the cutscenes were 20 hours long then out of those 3 fans, 2 of them or maybe even all 3 of them might still like it but that isnt a reason to do make 20 hour cutscenes. More to the point, if the cutscenes were that long, it would be bad writing.

It is pausable if played solo. In multiplayer it obviously isn't. I can't tell how the controls were on the PSP but given the fact that it has 2 less buttons a one less stick I assume it was bad.

MGS2 and 3 had access to two sticks but did not use both. So I guess you assume they are bad?

 

[CathyRina]

If a game is a visual novel then its OK for the cutscenes to be much much longer. But since MGS is not then different rules apply.

If the context of these cutscenes really pisses you off that much then maybe you'll be enjoying them more when watching the graphical novel for MGS 1 & 2. Peace walker even uses this graphical novel styled cutscenes to tell its story.

so not only I had point but I was objectively right?

If you are an artist that needs to be interpreted, yes. If you are in a argument trying to make a point, no.
You haven't used any these arguments. You didn't say the writing in MGS need to be shortened or have more gameplay portions in between them for higher mass appeal. You said long cutscenes are bad because you don't like them.

The wants of the four are not mutually exclusive. The 3 won't suddenly hate MGS series if the cutscenes were a little shorter.

You don't know the MGS community then. There are even rumors of people sending Kojima death threats if he doesn't make a sequel.

MGS2 and 3 had access to two sticks but did not use both. So I guess you assume they are bad?

Yes, the controls for these two games do suck balls. Luckily, MGS3 got a 3DS port that fixed that issue (when you play with circle pad pro that is). As for MGS2 you have stick to the outdated crap controls unfortunately.
One would think that in the HD collections of these games they would fix that but I guess I shall be wrong about that. This probably my biggest critique point about these re-releases.

 

[zeello]

If the context of these cutscenes really pisses you off that much then maybe you'll be enjoying them more when watching the graphical novel for MGS 1 & 2. Peace walker even uses this graphical novel styled cutscenes to tell its story.

Well if they could just release a comic book to elaborate everything they wanted to in the story then maybe they should have done that instead?

You haven't used any these arguments. You didn't say the writing in MGS need to be shortened or have more gameplay portions in between them for higher mass appeal. You said long cutscenes are bad because you don't like them.

I'm saying two things 1) it is possible for cutscenes to be too long, and 2) that it is safe to say MGS series could have benefitted from shorter cutscenes

I don't see what is so controversial about either of those statements.

You don't know the MGS community then. There are even rumors of people sending Kojima death threats if he doesn't make a sequel.

so I guess what you're saying is, the fans are objectively right?

p.s.man I hope the death threat sending guy isnt you

Yes, the controls for these two games do suck balls. Luckily, MGS3 got a 3DS port that fixed that issue (when you play with circle pad pro that is). As for MGS2 you have stick to the outdated crap controls unfortunately.
One would think that in the HD collections of these games they would fix that but I guess I shall be wrong about that. This probably my biggest critique point about these re-releases.

well color me surprised. you said something critical of an MGS game o.o

 

[CathyRina]

Well if they could just release a comic book to elaborate everything they wanted to in the story then maybe they should have done that instead?

But they don't. I watched both of them and I really wasn't having such of blast as if I was playing these games. Which is usually a sign of videogame writing working for video games only. Which is also a sign of MGS writing not being bad simply because the cutscenes are long.
The writing has other problems and you disagreed with me right on my first post in this argument, retconning and creating excuses for sequels.

I don't see what is so controversial about either of those statements.

both statements don't have arguments to back them up. The "because" is missing. Which shouldn't be missing in a argument.

so I guess what you're saying is, the fans are objectively right?

No, I was just saying that you don't know how easy it is to piss some fans off. Fans are subjective as fuck. But they are a reliable audience money source though.

p.s.man I hope the death threat sending guy isnt you

To do that I would've to care about canon, which I don't. Caring about MGS canon is like caring if Jesus and the good lord did actually exist. It's a mystery with many contradictions, retcons and plot holes that shall remain mysteries for eternity.

 

[zeello]

I dunno why when writing games they never figure out there will be a sequel. Especially when its a mega popular game like MGS. "This series makes lots of money which is why after this game there will be no more sequels ever. EVER" *next day* "y'know, on second thought..."

"because" because it is a rule that applies to every other medium? and because many gamers agree? and because it is a gaming title, not a movie? at some point it is common sense

"you don't know" what makes you presume I don't know? you keep bringing up things that have nothing to do with the topic. Here you implied that a series should cater to those who send death threats.

"is like caring if Jesus and the good lord actually exist"
yea why would anyone care about that. besides every christian ever

"shall remain mysteries for eternity"
hint: they don't exist

also, you said MGS2 is one of the first games you ever saw. So I am arguing with like a little kid from another dimension or something. Not sure if there is a point. "yea the controls suck but I love these 40 minute cutscenes" aha... I'll be on my way then

 

[CathyRina]

zeello I really stop having fun at this. You really are too ignorant to be reasoned with and fail to tell a difference between subjective opinions and objective opinions.Like, I'm still not even sure if you actually ever finished a Metal Gear game. Yet still you think you are in a position to say that the series writing is objectively bad while pointing out reasons that are not the source of the problem. Not that you would even show interest into finding the root of the problem out since your opinion is sacred and untouchable. If you are grown up then at least act as one. I'm hating on FF13 games because I played them and know what I'm talking about. You, during neither of your post, seem to know what you are talking about. You also expect long cutscenes to be automatically objectively bad because of common sense. That's dumbest argument I have ever heard. Somehow common sense, something that every human has, still doesn't stand in the way of the series selling millions of copies. Somehow common sense didn't stop Heavy rain and beyond two souls perform well despite having bad plot's and literally only QTE gameplay. I would really think that through again if I were you.

 

[Arras]

zeello I really stop having fun at this. You really are too ignorant to be reasoned with and fail to tell a difference between subjective opinions and objective opinions. Like, I'm still not even sure if you actually ever finished a Metal Gear game. Yet still you think you are in a position to say that the series writing is objectively bad while pointing out reasons that are not the source of the problem. Not that you would even show interest into finding the root of the problem out since your opinion is sacred and untouchable. If you are grown up then at least act as one. I'm hating on FF13 games because I played them and know what I'm talking about. You, during neither of your post, seem to know what you are talking about. You also expect long cutscenes to be automatically objectively bad because of common sense. That's dumbest argument I have ever heard. Somehow common sense, something that every human has, still doesn't stand in the way of the series selling millions of copies. Somehow common sense didn't stop Heavy rain and beyond two souls perform well despite having bad plot's and literally only QTE gameplay. I would really think that through again if I were you.

I know that probably wasn't your point, but objective opinions don't exist. An opinion is subjective by definition.

 

[zeello]

zeello I really stop having fun at this. You really are too ignorant to be reasoned with and fail to tell a difference between subjective opinions and objective opinions.Like, I'm still not even sure if you actually ever finished a Metal Gear game. Yet still you think you are in a position to say that the series wryiting is objectively bad while pointing out reasons that are not the source of the problem.

I was merely citing examples of bad writing in gaming. I did not say those games didn't have good writing or that all of the writing is bad. I only pointed out the slip-ups or negative aspects.

Not that you would even show interest into finding the root of the problem out since your opinion is sacred and untouchable.

The root of the problem is not the writing to begin with.
Also I admire the ego behind your sentence. "only I know what is wrong with MGS series. You would have known too if you had done the research" You remind me of myself. xD

If you are grown up then at least act as one. I'm hating on FF13 games because I played them and know what I'm talking about. You, during neither of your post, seem to know what you are talking about. You also expect long cutscenes to be automatically objectively bad because of common sense.

If they are too long then yes. Long cutscenes arent out of the question but you shouldnt go overboard. You say I don't know what I'm talking about but I'm only really saying that one thing. I don't see what there is to argue with unless you think MGS scenes technically don't break this rule since they are either not that long or so good that its worth it. Also, I should add a point in my defense: games are young, and diverse, so it's up in the air what the correct cutscene length for a certain genre should be, but in theory an ideal cutscene lemgtyh does exist and it stands to reason that the longer a cutscene the more likely it becomes too long.

Also if I sit down every night to play for one hour it isn't a bad thing to get roughly thee same amount of cutscenes and gameplay in each session. Not that one night is impromptu 'watch cutscenes' night.

Somehow common sense didn't stop Heavy rain and beyond two souls perform well despite having bad plot's and literally only QTE gameplay. I would really think that through again if I were you.

OK but no you don't get to do that, Heavy Rain is a story game, that's the whole point. I even mentioned visual novels which is basically what Heavy Rain is. Visual novels are comic books. Heavy Rain is a movie. MGS on the other hand is trying to be a real game at the same time. At some point after all the cutscenes I am going to have to play it.

also its funny I just invoked the impromptu cutscenes night example right before reading this. Because if I played Heavy Rain one hour every night then at least I can expect one full hour of interactive cutscenes, not that on some nights I simply watch cutscenes and never get to do anything while other nights I get a dancing game and can't progress the story until I master a certain song.

 

[Guild McCommunist]

Some games are story focused, others are not. Just because you're not story focused doesn't mean you have a bad narrative, it's just not as in-depth.

Like a game like Vanquish has a goofy narrative but it's serviceable, it wasn't designed for anything more.