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Can someone explain to me the importance of Pride parades.

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orangy57

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They march because they need to use greater measures so that people can finally accept them, often times people will just say that they're fine with LGBT people but only "as long as they're not talking to me." This shouldn't be the case though, they need to spread their message so that they'll finally be normalized in society and not outcasts that "regular" people don't want to be around. LGBT people have also been trying for their rights for hundreds of years, so it's kinda time for them to celebrate for all those who were marginalized and discriminated against due to their sexuality.
 

Lacius

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You got everything wrong.

"toxic masculinity" is a term used by medias (and twitter people it seems) as a shield whenever they're not happy with a backslash. Happened with a lot of game/movie flops recently.
The FACT that they are calling it "toxic masculinity" where what is really is is just people disliking something IS prejudice. It wouldn't if it was "toxic people", but the fact is when you mention a gender, you're encasing a category of the population based on a physical property of said people. Freedom of consequences? What do you do of that silly guy that's just there supporting all kinds of change and is now targeted by proxy as a male? Naah, I guess not all the fights for equality are worth fighting for.
And guess what? There are women disliking the new Star Wars! Gay people too! There are natives who had no issue with how G&W was depicted in Smash Bros! These voices are NEVER heard for some reason.

Still can't see why that's a problem? Well sorry, can't help any more than that. Being blind to double standards is so much easier, let's all jump in the bandwagon and shame the scapegoat.



When it's actually homophobia yes.
But when people are trigger-happy with that word it needs to be called out to. Not all comments are homophobic. Questioning the pride definitely isn't.
If it's about having to hide it, then I agree with the homophobic nature of that comment.
However, not hiding it does not mean going over the top at all costs when in public.
That's not what toxic masculinity is.
 

Lacius

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Does this come from your own objective observation and research, or is this something you have just heard repeated over and over again like it were a fact?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------




Here ya go:

Objective observation and research.
 
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mikefor20

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I didn't say that coming out of the closet was a bad thing. I didn't say to hide your sexuality. I simply said it doesn't need to be a component in everything you do. And who are you trying to kid if you telling me that the only way you identify sexually is if you dress up as a giant caterpillar with a dick hanging off your face? That's what I'm talkin about. I'm not denying your right to do it but I don't think you then say you don't deserve to be criticized for it. You're doing things that are making other people uncomfortable. Then you're going to hear their comments. That's what I'm saying. Not to hide who you are. Are you really so flaming that you can't maintain? That you can't fit in when you need to? You don't have to let it fly all the time right? That sounds like an addict to me. An obsession. That's what I'm saying. For the record I have many friends and family members who are gay. I don't give a fuck. I'm saying running around doing a bunch of stuff that makes other people feel uncomfortable and telling them it's their responsibility to get used to it is stupid. Selfish.
 
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Lacius

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Is that what in the poster in question was suggesting?

I am no fan of don't ask, don't tell. I can similarly see "just pretend like you are not" being a troubling course of action to suggest. There is something of a gulf between that and being told you are bad person for not condoning someone, or indeed 50 someones synchronously*, gyrating down the high street on a Saturday afternoon in a nowt but a jockstrap of leather and combat boots, which if I am reading their previous posts correctly (some I only skimmed) seems to be more where they are coming from**.

**and doing the "if the roles were reversed"/with no other context test then I dare say they are not without a point. Shock factor can be something useful at times but I am still going to question if it is not preaching to the choir and being unlikely to win others over.

*or if the various bits of footage I saw was anything to go by then anything but synchronously, though I suppose defying stereotypes is something some people seek to do.
Yes, that is what he was suggesting. If you haven't done so, also check out his earlier posts where he says men shouldn't act feminine in front of him (as well as a lot of other homophobic nonsense).
 

mikefor20

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They march because they need to use greater measures so that people can finally accept them, often times people will just say that they're fine with LGBT people but only "as long as they're not talking to me." This shouldn't be the case though, they need to spread their message so that they'll finally be normalized in society and not outcasts that "regular" people don't want to be around. LGBT people have also been trying for their rights for hundreds of years, so it's kinda time for them to celebrate for all those who were marginalized and discriminated against due to their sexuality.

Backwards logic to me. Showing me something I don't like over and over again makes me accept it? No. That makes it worse usually. Use a little logic and less campaign statements. I realize that these arguments have been had before and you guys have your little slogans you like to use and think you won but I don't think you even know what you're talking about in the first place. Punching someone more doesn't make it hurt less. It just pisses them off. And be real you are celebrating for yourselves. You're not servicing anybody but yourselves.
 
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Lacius

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You know, you can keep answering with one sentence statements and no arguments. My comment already answers that: It doesn't matter, it is used as an excuse to target a category of people.
I've wasted a lot of time in this thread, and I'm probably not going to do that again. If you aren't going to do very basic research on toxic masculinity before throwing around the term incorrectly, I don't exactly see it as my burden to spoon-feed you a lesson on what the difference is between masculinity (which isn't bad) and toxic masculinity (which is bad).

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I don't see why your sexual identity has to be a part of everything you do. Ridiculous. Obsess much? Keep it to yourself and it's all good dude
You don't know anything about my sexual identity, so I'm not sure how I'm obsessing over it.
 

orangy57

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Backwards logic to me. Showing me something I don't like over and over again makes me accept it? No. That makes it worse usually. Use a little logic and less campaign statements. I realize that these arguments have been had before and you guys have your little slogans you like to use and think you won but I don't think you even know what you're talking about in the first place. Punching someone more doesn't make it hurt less. It just pisses them off. And be real you are celebrating for yourselves. You're not servicing anybody but yourselves.

so wait you're saying you don't like gay people
 

Lacius

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And be real you are celebrating for yourselves. You're not servicing anybody but yourselves.
As I said very early in our conversation, something doesn't have to be selfless for it to be morally good. Ending slavery and combating racism were selfish endeavors, technically speaking.

At the same time, however, creating a more just society for one group makes it a more just society for everyone.
 

AmandaRose

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I'm saying running around doing a bunch of stuff that makes other people feel uncomfortable and telling them it's their responsibility to get used to it is stupid. Selfish.
We have a lifetime of being made to feel uncomfortable by homophobic/transphobic people you are made to feel uncomfortable 1 day a year.
 
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deinonychus71

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I've wasted a lot of time in this thread, and I'm probably not going to do that again. If you aren't going to do very basic research on toxic masculinity before throwing around the term incorrectly, I don't exactly see it as my burden to spoon-feed you a lesson on what the difference is between masculinity (which isn't bad) and toxic masculinity (which is bad).

You wouldn't be wasting your time if you were reading what people were telling you. It's the second time I'm telling you it doesn't matter what it truly means since it fallaciously used non stop by different social actors.
Take another commonly used hasty generalization: "middle age straight white male" to negatively talk about some people. Nothing bad with any of these words, and yet used to mock a category of people.

But again, if you weren't able to see the double standard previously, you're not going to start now.
 
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Lacius

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You wouldn't be wasting your time if you were reading what people were telling you. It's the second time I'm telling you it doesn't matter what it truly means since it fallaciously used non stop by different social actors.
Take another commonly used hasty generalization: "middle age straight white male" to negatively talk about some people. Nothing bad with any of these words, and yet used to mock a category of people.

But again, if you weren't able to see the double standard previously, you're not going to start now.
And now, once again, you're confusing an isolated thing with systemic oppression.

But again, if you weren't able to see the difference previously, you're not going to start now.
 
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deinonychus71

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I don't think you know what systemic oppression is. The powerful majority cannot be systemically oppressed, by definition. What you're describing are isolated incidents.
So first, I hope we both agree that "majority" in terms of number never mattered. There are more men than women, there are more poor than rich, etc. Pretty easy to find counter examples.
Second, "powerful majority": Are you going to make me link you to all these website of mainstream media relaying this kind of fallacies and then tell me they're "the minority"? Polygon, IGN, Kotaku? If we're talking about "powerful", they're the one "in power" related to the influence they are spreading, so they're totally able to establish "systematic oppression".

I'm not even asking for anyone to feel "bad" for anyone. Sure historically these things don't compare to what LGBTs and people of color have lived. It's not even close. But it is absolutely ridiculous to answer to bullying by becoming bullies ourselves. People living now didn't take part to any past abuse. This along with the constant need of reminding everyone we are victims is why I will never follow LGBT movements.
Well that, and because within LGBT communities you see pretty awful stuff that MILES worse than anything I've read on this thread :)
 
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FAST6191

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What I would say to that is the following.

If I tell people I am a trans woman I get a whole load of abuse and told to stop telling people.

If I don't tell people I'm trans and then they find out I then get a whole lot of abuse and told I should have told them straight away and not have kept it quiet.

I have had both the above happen to me on this site and IRL in the past.

So if I keep it to myself like you say then I get abuse and if I honest about who I am I get abuse so which one am I meant to do?

It is not necessarily a topic I would started myself but if you went first then OK.

I have not seen your PMs or profile posts so can't speak to those as far as the site is concerned (if there were any arseholes there then hopefully you brushed them off), and real life I will skip for this one. Site wise you seemed to make a big deal about the username change and out and out declaring yourself as such*, fair enough really -- if you particularly felt the need to do that and found it helpful then so be it (given your apparent age, location, cultural background and knowing something of it I imagine a lot of confusion and inclination to hide things in your past. A ritual shedding of that in some of a "no going back now" is then something I have seen be helpful in the past). After that you seem to have brought it up a fair bit and wedged it in places where it is of dubious relevance at best, occasionally also as some kind of shield or potential argument if not ender then "I R expart" type thing**. Though in the case of the latter never in a matter where it is completely irrelevant or like I have seen some do to see people some people terrified of causing offence shut down, which I would say is credit to you but that would be an insult (I think seriously low of people that try that one, and you have shown far too much cunning to hopefully ever go in for such dubious debate tactics). Can't say I have been there all your posts but it seems we cover much the same ground on the forums and I would say based on that I am slightly dubious of the "abuse if I do, abuse if I hold back" thing as far as they are concerned, though the previous caveat is still in place.

*very far (numbers and time) from the first person to do so, probably won't be the last, indeed I don't think you are at this point but I tend not to keep track of the various aspects of the coming out threads).

**it might well be that you are as far as such matters are concerned, and it might be part of my personal preference for giving people enough rope to hang themselves/hiding my abilities as a means of debate that sees me pick up on it.

Previously we found we have differing opinions on the nature of certain things (a big one being whether someone should end up in front of the beak for deliberately using the non preferred pronouns), and judging by the quotes in some of your avatars we might have further differing opinions on certain matters***, but in general it does seem like a lot of this culminates in a preaching to the choir/raging amongst allies sense of things which almost feels like spam, conversation derailment (if somewhat unintentional), or wasted text. From what I have seen most of the core community here is of the "My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like" persuasion (others that might not have seen such words before then it is a snippet of https://joshhighland.com/2007/08/28/mentors-last-words-the-hacker-manifesto/ ) which only adds to this sense of things.

***the "trans women are women too" one from the other day probably being a start there. Right now it is common thrown out as something of a counter to the terfs and while I don't find them terribly good in their approach I don't disagree with their opposition to the "if you don't sleep with me because I am trans then you are a bigot" notion. Happy to use the given pronouns, happy to call a relationship where you shack up with a woman a lesbian relationship, but if someone does not care to shack up because you are trans then I am not even going to call that person an arsehole as it seems like a perfectly fine thing to put down to personal preference.

For me to judge a person on wasted text though...

Don't really know what to answer the final question with, and would probably look for more nuance there. I would say feel free to make a blog about an issue because of the whole trans thing, a debate thread framed around, have it in profile info if you want and by all means note it in a discussion but think hard if it is really of relevance if putting it in a thread. On the flip side if you want to be a lightning rod (not a position without merit; I imagine you would be the first to say "PM me if you think I can help here, your confidence is assured") then expect shocks. If you don't change anything at all then all is still good as far as I am concerned -- continue to share industry stories, discuss games of old and games of the day, spar in debates, and otherwise help people with their issues (technical or otherwise) on the forums and you are doing pretty much everything these forums focus on and revolve around.

It's a celebration of how far we've come - and how much more there is to do.

Look at Birmingham LGBT teaching row, Brunei, many other places, just because it's legal doesnt mean its accepted to be trans, non binary, gay, bi, ace, etc.

There's still progress to be made throughout society.
On the Birmingham thing then while I have little respect of the "muh religion" argument then having seen the syllabus I do have to wonder what problems it is addressing, and the efficacy of it all (which includes the downsides).


Brunei. Other countries, and the seeming lack of concern for them among many groups (never mind the odd love affair many people that would screech at me about homophobia have for the religions and practices of places that are demonstrably dangerous for such people to live in), is a thing that concerns, however I am not entirely sure what a parade as we see this last few years is supposed to address there.
 

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So first, I hope we both agree that "majority" in terms of number never mattered. There are more men than women, there are more poor than rich, etc. Pretty easy to find counter examples.
Second, "powerful majority": Are you going to make me link you to all these website of mainstream media relaying this kind of fallacies and then tell me they're "the minority"? Polygon, IGN, Kotaku? If we're talking about "powerful", they're the one "in power" related to the influence they are spreading, so they're totally able to establish "systematic oppression".

I'm not even asking for anyone to feel "bad" for anyone. Sure historically these things don't compare to what LGBTs and people of color have lived. It's not even close. But it is absolutely ridiculous to answer to bullying by becoming bullies ourselves. People living now didn't take part to any past abuse. This along with the constant need of reminding everyone we are victims is why I will never follow LGBT movements.
Well that, and because within LGBT communities you see pretty awful stuff that MILES worse than anything I've read on this thread :)
Your post, and I truly mean this respectfully, is a little rambling, and I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. Are you arguing that straight white men, for example, are not the powerful majority? Are you arguing they are systemically oppressed? If so, how are they being systemically oppressed? Some people using the term "middle age straight white male" in a negative way isn't systemic oppression.
 

deinonychus71

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Your post, and I truly mean this respectfully, is a little rambling, and I'm not sure what you're arguing anymore. Are you arguing that straight white men, for example, are not the powerful majority? Are you arguing they are systemically oppressed? If so, how are they being systemically oppressed? Some people using the term "middle age straight white male" in a negative way isn't systemic oppression.
It derivated from you saying white men cannot be oppressed nor will they ever be. Quite a few posts before that.
And I strongly disagree that it can never be the case since there's more and more examples of that surfacing.
 

Lacius

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It derivated from you saying white men cannot be oppressed nor will they ever be. Quite a few posts before that.
And I strongly disagree that it can never be the case since there's more and more examples of that surfacing.
I'd like to know where I said that white men cannot be oppressed (I didn't). There's always going to be someone who hates you, regardless of your demographics and identities.

In reality, I said they will never be systemically oppressed like women, racial minorities, LGBT minorities, etc.
 

Ericthegreat

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I got an interesting question, at pride parades (there are many in my area), people bring their kids more and more lately, why do some guys still feel the need to whip their dick out, I always imagined this wasnt a real thing and just something people said to make it seem like something really bad was happening, but seems it isnt >.>; If it was 18+ I really wouldnt care, but I see more and more kids going to these. I really think they need to decide, either 18+ or family events.... (I know this is not condoned by the events, just seems no one cares if it happens)
 
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