Dispute over (now) 8-year-old son's transition to a girl

[notimp]

Just because you modify something to resemble something else, doesn't mean it has become something else. It merely resembles it.

Correct. At least on the DNA level. But its the resemblance people are after. Self image. 'Feeling of what you are.'

You dont greenlight the operation for a 'want' you greenlight it for severe psychological strain of feeling that you are in the wrong body. (After trying all other forms of alleviating the psychological strain.) And even if people dont go for the operation, but just for cosmetic changes, they are faced with "whats that - we dont like it", in social interaction.

The idea is to alleviate that.

Not to change 'reality' as a whole. Just perception.

 

[Seliph]

Just because you modify something to resemble something else, doesn't mean it has become something else. It merely resembles it.

Really? Is that really true? If I mold clay into a pot, does that make a pot or does it only make the semblance of a pot? If I put a red ball on your nose, would that make you a clown or does that only make you resemble a clown? Are organs created from stem cells organs or do they simply create the semblance of organs? If I forge metal into a sharp stabby stick with a grip and pommel on it, does that make a sword or does it simply make the semblance of a sword?

If you took a penis and molded into the exact shape of a vagina, does that make a vagina or does it only make the semblance of a vagina? If you can agree that molded clay makes a pot, I think you can agree that a molded penis can create a vagina.

Do you see where your line of logic takes you? You should really read more about post-modernism. And also intersex people, because if you read about them you'd realize the entire foundation of your argument fundamentally makes no sense.

 

[Deleted User]

Correct. At least on the DNA level. But its the resemblance people are after. Self image. 'Feeling of what you are.'

You dont greenlight the operation for a 'want' you greenlight it for severe psychological strain of feeling that you are in the wrong body. (After trying all other forms of alleviating the psychological strain.) And even if people dont go for the operation, but just for cosmetic changes, they are faced with "whats that - we dont like it", in social interaction.

The idea is to alleviate that.

Not to change 'reality' as a whole. Just perception.

My argument is that people shouldn't say that they are a different gender when all they actually are are their original gender with a modification so that they resemble their target gender.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Really? Is that really true? If I mold clay into a pot, does that make a pot or does it only make the semblance of a pot? If I put a red ball on your nose, would that make you a clown or does that only make you resemble a clown? Are organs created from stem cells organs or do they simply create the semblance of organs? If I forge metal into a sharp stabby stick with a grip and pommel on it, does that make a sword or does it simply make the semblance of a sword?

If you took a penis and molded into the exact shape of a vagina, does that make a vagina or does it only make the semblance of a vagina? If you can agree that molded clay makes a pot, I think you can agree that a molded penis can create a vagina.

Do you see where your line of logic takes you? You should really read more about post-modernism. And also intersex people, because if you read about them you'd realize the entire foundation of your argument fundamentally makes no sense.

This would make sense (somewhat) if transgender surgery actually changed your gender. But it doesn't. After a transgender surgery, your DNA stays the same gender, many parts of your brain and other body parts remain linked to the original gender, and your fake sex organs are really low quality. (A transgender woman's new "penis" is made of intestinal flesh.)

 

[notimp]

Just because you modify something to resemble something else, doesn't mean it has become something else. It merely resembles it.

Yes, and resemblance is enough. It literally all we can do. We can't do more than resemblance. (On different levels.)

But thats enough to remove psychological strain (How much? It differs.)

But if those people then are confronted with 'we dont like it' all the time, it kills them (figuratively - just not to be too dark here) regardless.

 

[Deleted User]

Yes, so transgender surgery doesn't actually change your gender, because

We can't do more than resemblance.

 

[notimp]

My argument is that people shouldn't say that they are a different gender when all they actually are are their original gender with a modification so that they resemble their target gender.

That defeats the purpose.

Let me open up here, and tell you a personal story. Sincerely hoping that you arent just trolling because damn it, I dont like to..

I had a very similar experience in life. I had two vitrectomies, for mouches volantes. I now have IOLs in both of my eyes (because expectedly cataracts in both eyes followed a few years after) - everything went well. Which isnt always the case. My vision is not as it was before, but it is good - for having IOLs.

The operation also isn't done for a physiological need, but because of psychological strain. It is only done if nothing else helps.

And it helped enormously. Its an extremely difficult thing to promote, because if complications arise...

But at least I didn't have to deal with people telling me all day 'what have you done', after I've done it.

Yes, so transgender surgery doesn't actually change your gender, because

Gender socially is identified based on resemblance. But genetically, medically. No, we cant change you entirely. You wont be able to have children. Your genetical makeup doesnt change. But in most daily interactions, that doesnt matter.

 

[Seliph]

This would make sense (somewhat) if transgender surgery actually changed your gender. But it doesn't. After a transgender surgery, your DNA stays the same gender, many parts of your brain and other body parts remain linked to the original gender, and your fake sex organs are really low quality. (A transgender woman's new "penis" is made of intestinal flesh.)

DNA has nothing to do with gender, you're thinking about sex. And regardless of the quality of a trans-man's penis (I've seen some quality ones btw), they still have a penis lol, erection and all. Think about it, would you call a man with a micropenis female just because he has a "low quality" penis? No, you wouldn't.

Also with hormone replacement therapy, several aspects of your body and brain are changed to help you resemble the desired sex. You can look this up.

 

[omgcat]

My argument is that people shouldn't say that they are a different gender when all they actually are are their original gender with a modification so that they resemble their target gender.

gender != biological sex. gender is in the mind, sex is the body part.

even sex is not binary, you can have varying degrees of issues such as SRY gene deletion which means someone with an XY develops through the XX pathway. one can even have X0 which results in a female body and striated gonads. one can even have SRY gene translation (movement) that results in a male body with XX sex chromosomes. also the crazy variations such as XXY, XXYY, XYY, ect. trans issues are part of the natural variation of the human species having to do with the mental part of sex. while it is small, when you get numbers of people in the scales of billions, these variations can be more common. Intersex and non-standard genital formation is as common as red hair (1-2%).