Do you find nazi imagery offensive?

[Deleted member 569431]

What information did you give again? Other than mentioning Israel, one of the most anti-socialist (including anti-fascist and anti-communist) and pro-capitalist country ever.
I can keep quoting some of the top level nazi officials (including the mustache guy) and socialism (anti-capitalism) is always their excuse for their crimes.

Fair enough RE sources though again youre putting a lot of faith in the moustached guy's ability to tell the truth! Generally thats not a great way to go! For Hitler/the Nazis: Ian Kershaws Hitler biography. Its two parts but theres a combined Volume. He goes into how the Nazi regime operated and the 'working towards the Fuhrer' thesis. Somewhere between monarchy and oligarchy. Richard Evans has a three part book series on the Third Reich in general and also deals with the economical side. Michael Burleigh's book on the Third Reich also worth reading. Burleighs book The Racial State very much recommended too. For the concentration camp system Wachmanns KL is worth reading as is Van Pelt and Dworks history of Auschwitz. In terms of antisemitism, Yad Vashem's website has a huuuge range of free resources and well worth going into. Im actually working on getting my account on this deleted so do take down the book references for yourselves and honestly very best of luck! Your PSP work was/is very much appreciated!

 

[Acid_Snake]

Fair enough RE sources though again youre putting a lot of faith in the moustached guy's ability to tell the truth! Generally thats not a great way to go! For Hitler/the Nazis: Ian Kershaws Hitler biography. Its two parts but theres a combined Volume. He goes into how the Nazi regime operated and the 'working towards the Fuhrer' thesis. Somewhere between monarchy and oligarchy. Richard Evans has a three part book series on the Third Reich in general and also deals with the economical side. Michael Burleigh's book on the Third Reich also worth reading. For the concentration camp system Wachmanns KL is worth reading as is Van Pelt and Dworks history of Auschwitz. In terms of antisemitism, Yad Vashem's website has a huuuge range of free resources and well worth going into.

I know the funny mustache guy isn't exactly the best truth teller, but neither is the other mustache guy from russia, or the bird killer from china. You gotta see the facts, how they acted, how their "ideas" went into practice, and when you do that with communism and national-socialism it's very hard to see the difference (other than one guy puts you in a gas chamber, the other guy doesn't have any gas so you die of hypothermia).

I should also clear something out: there's a fair difference between national-socialism (Germany) and Fascism (Spain and Italy).
The latter is a lot more right-leaning than the former. But this is mostly because the socialists in Spain and Italy would side with the communists, who were opposed to religion so the Catholic Church would have none of that. Don't forget Mussolini started his career in the Socialist Party of Italy, where he became a prominent leader until he was kicked out for being too radical. Fascism is historically born out of the radicalization of a socialist leader. He then went on to write the Fascist Manifesto, which as the name implies attempts to be a "true socialist" opposition to Marx' Communist Manifesto. If you read Mussolini's book, he recognizes socialism when it comes to being able to identify problems in society, but totally denies Marx' socialist solution (he talks a lot of sh*t about it).

 

[Deleted member 397813]

depends on the context

 

[Deleted member 569431]

I know the funny mustache guy isn't exactly the best truth teller, but neither is the other mustache guy from russia, or the bird killer from china. You gotta see the facts, how they acted, how their "ideas" went into practice, and when you do that with communism and national-socialism it's very hard to see the difference (other than one guy puts you in a gas chamber, the other guy doesn't have any gas so you die of hypothermia).

I should also clear something out: there's a fair difference between national-socialism (Germany) and Fascism (Spain and Italy).
The latter is a lot more right-leaning than the former. But this is mostly because the socialists in Spain and Italy would side with the communists, who were opposed to religion so the Catholic Church would have none of that. Don't forget Mussolini started his career in the Socialist Party of Italy, where he became a prominent leader until he was kicked out for being too radical. Fascism is historically born out of the radicalization of a socialist leader. He then went on to write the Fascist Manifesto, which as the name implies attempts to be a "true socialist" opposition to Marx' Communist Manifesto. If you read Mussolini's book, he recognizes socialism when it comes to being able to identify problems in society, but totally denies Marx' socialist solution (he talks a lot of sh*t about it).

It can be difficult to tell all right when it comes to practice but I dont think generalizations help. In terms of atrocities etc the major difference between the Nazis and every other thing before it is that theirs was the first (and so far only) act of genocide carried out for PURELY ideological reasons: to kill every Jewish person. To go back to the original question of this thread, thats why the imagery is much more offensive then anything else. Theres ones with higher body counts etc but thats why theirs is the most disgusting of all. Every single act of genocide before it might have had some element of ideology but also other factors came into it (economics, nationalism etc). That was the case in Bosnia for example, Rwanda was concerned about property IIRC. In terms of Stalin, mass industrialization to compete with the West as well as sustaining his regime (with the Gulag system, they would round up random people off the street if they were running short of workers). I dont think Stalin had very much to do with ideology, it was more like a gangster regime. Communism and Sovietisation were just labels, the practice was different and on the surface as you say similar. With Hitler and the Nazi's though, all other considerations were secondary to that aim of murdering every Jew in Europe. There was a case in Greece on the island of Kos if I remember where they were rounding up the Jewish communities there and it turned out they missed on elderly man who had been away on another island. They turned the whole load of boats around to get this one person who would have been dead soon anyway. Eichmann was still running the trains as the Eastern Front was collapsing etc.

 

[Darth Meteos]

I do not. I've learned about world war 2 and the injustices but I don't find political propaganda from something which ended decades before I was born offensive.

Offended is the wrong word. Nobody is offended by the design of a swastika. They're repulsed by the ideology of the people who fly swastika flags, who tattoo the lightning bolts on themselves.

 

[Minox]

Same answer as I had for communism imagery - Offensive, no. Distasteful, yes.

 

[chrisrlink]

say no I DARE YOU, you Nazi scumbags

 

[Digital_Cheese]

I don’t really care about Nazi images. Why should I care that someone put a image of something that happened decades before I was born and is already hated by any sane person? I shouldn’t because it’s a waste of time getting mad at that and getting mad someone sends it.

 

[Jayro]

say no I DARE YOU, you Nazi scumbags

I say no, when it comes to ports of Wolfenstein 3D. The censored versions offend me more.

 

[Dark_Phoras]

It depends on the use, I find it offensive if used as a statement of support, but I don't find it offensive in art. Anytime there's a conversation of the kind, there's someone who needs to say they also find communism offensive. I think there's a difference: even though communist regimes committed atrocities, those atrocities aren't a part of the communist ideology; but in nazism, the violence and the slaughter are key components of the ideology.

 

[JuanMena]

Holy shit, look at the gas bill.jpeg

 

[FAST6191]

even though communist regimes committed atrocities, those atrocities aren't a part of the communist ideology

Control by the state to that degree might be said to be pretty atrocious (does rather clash with ideas of personal, ethnic, cultural and civilisational freedoms), and there is the further idea that everybody that went in for it, doubly so anybody that went big, has done some seriously unpleasant shit under its guise means even if such a thing is not spelled out (and if we are to go with the idea that there are non Marxist communists out there somewhere* then there would appear to be no central ideology to point at so consequences become even more important).

*even if they are generally about as a relevant to world history or history of such states as those that would have a hereditary monarchy there to crush the state.

 

[Creamu]

Control by the state to that degree might be said to be pretty atrocious (does rather clash with ideas of personal, ethnic, cultural and civilisational freedoms), and there is the further idea that everybody that went in for it, doubly so anybody that went big, has done some seriously unpleasant shit under its guise means even if such a thing is not spelled out (and if we are to go with the idea that there are non Marxist communists out there somewhere* then there would appear to be no central ideology to point at so consequences become even more important).

*even if they are generally about as a relevant to world history or history of such states as those that would have a hereditary monarchy there to crush the state.

I think with the bolshevik kill count of 66.000.000 in a few years it is easy to assume that there is a connection of the ideology of these hyper criminals and the way they act. You don't just kill that many people as a side project.

An interesting question for me would be this:

Would you be offended by a game where the people of the manhattan project were depicted and positioned just like germans are in many games?

My answer is no not at all.

 

[Viri]

say no I DARE YOU, you Nazi scumbags

No.

 

[Dark_Phoras]

@FAST6191 the control by the state under communism isn't atrocious, it's a different approach to the ownership of the means of production and the distribution of goods. Instead of having a company selling their products in the market to the citizens, those products are distributed through the population according to need.

Nazi ideology is established on the social Darwinism concept of survival of the fittest, in which the society culls its weakest. The idea is that everyone must dedicate their lives to a uniformized society that functions as seamlessly as possible. To this end, violence and domination are incentivized in order to establish who's strong and who's weak.

 

[FAST6191]

@FAST6191 the control by the state under communism isn't atrocious, it's a different approach to the ownership of the means of production and the distribution of goods. Instead of having a company selling their products in the market to the citizens, those products are distributed through the population according to need.

Nazi ideology is established on the social Darwinism concept of survival of the fittest, in which the society culls its weakest. The idea is that everyone must dedicate their lives to a uniformized society that functions as seamlessly as possible. To this end, violence and domination are incentivized in order to establish who's strong and who's weak.

One that does not work and can not work unless we solve economics and human behaviour, neither of which (as apparently you say later in the post) are desirable to do.

Also not sure if that counts as no true scotsman socialist.

 

[Valwinz]

Love the cool ass Army uniforms

 

[Dark_Phoras]

One that does not work and can not work unless we solve economics and human behaviour, neither of which (as apparently you say later in the post) are desirable to do.

That's totally irrelevant to both my point and the subject of the thread.

 

[FAST6191]

That's totally irrelevant to both my point and the subject of the thread.

Not really. Being compelled into anything is itself tricky to justify and compelled into something that demonstrably does not work/produce good outcomes (you can not know the price of everything as the world is constantly changing and needs vary between people by the hour, and human psychology does not allow for too much cooperation) then becomes far worse still.

 

[WG481]

not all swastikas are nazi imagery.
Heck, even the finish air force still uses it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karelia_Air_Command

The swastika is actually a Buddhist, Hindu, and Jain symbol of luck. It has a deeper meaning than most people realize, but the western world only knows the swastika as the evil symbol

So in the west, yeah Nazi imagery is offensive as crap because it typically denotes one meaning: Nazis.
But if I was at a Buddhist temple in Kyoto, I wouldn't mind seeing a swastika chiseled into the thousand year old temple wall, unless of course it wasn't a part of the original structure and some dummy was being a vandal.