London Terror attack.

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

How can someone manipulate a person into believing sth? I only believe things I find convincing. I'd like to understand it. Did she - in your case - appeal to your identity?

 

[Vipera]

Sorry if this thread is too old but I just noticed your response. Let me comment on a few things:
1) You use the word Islamophobia. I find it funny how in Paris after the terror attacks people went to the streets demonstrating that they are not afraid, people said they need to be united, they are against Islamophobia blabla. Then all of a sudden there is a suspicious noise and EVERYONE keeps running like a herd of sheep from a few wolves. That's pathetic. Every time I see terror attacks on the news I sarcastically say "Look at these Islamophobes running away. Don't they know Islam is a religion of peace?"

2) You claim I don't know about Islam. Actually I read the Quran several times, as well as significant portions of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, as well as common commentators like Ibn Kathir. What about you? I didn't read in Arabic but there are good websites with word by word translations, explanation of grammar etc. I know about the differences between translations (which one is more exact etc) and if I want to know about a specific phrase, I don't shy away from checking and comparing up to 10 translations in different languages.

3) You say that "such teachings" can be found in all monotheistic religion. Yes and no. I'm not here to defend other religions. In a way you are right, all monotheistic religions have a tendency to exclude members of other religious, show intolerance and have a history of or a fantasy about violence. Not sure about Zoroastrians (traditional Persian religion) but they are irrelevant today anyway.

BUT Islam is unique. Martyrdom in Christianity meant (and means today in African / Middle Eastern countries) to die for your faith. E.g. Muslims catch you and hold a knife to your head. Will you deny Christ? According to the New Testament, you should not. You get killed for "his glory" and go to heaven.
Roughly 600 years later the Quran comes along and says "They fight in the name of Allah, they slay and are slain" (+ various sayings by Muhammad e.g. that he would love to die in Jihad, be resurrected and die in Jihad again and so on). -> Killing and being killed for your faith. The Quran even allows its followers to deny being a Muslim in a dangerous situation (which is smart).
Christian history adopted the "killing for your faith" idea during the crusades (which by the way was a pathetic counter attack after hundreds of years of losing territory to the Muslims, see today's Near East and North Africa), but they have nothing to do with the original founder (be it Jesus or Paul) of the religion. So reforms always have a chance to make Christianity peaceful again. Reforms cannot make Islam peaceful because Islam was violent from the beginning (Islamic time reckoning starts with Medina, i.e. Muhammad gets political/military power). Muhammad: powerful and therefor violent. Jesus/Paul: powerless (and therefore?) peaceful.

4) The only way for Islam to become peaceful is to relativize it. Not surprisingly secular Muslims have less motivation to kill and get killed. For the vast majority of Christians (at least in the west) the thought of dying for Christ by not denying him seems stupid and horrific. Very few Christians would actually go out and leave their family and property to live a life as a poor wandering missionary - even though that's what Christ taught and how Jesus/Paul lived! Similarly most Muslims actually prefer THIS life.

5) Which brings me to converts: As you correctly stated, many radical Muslims have become radical only a few years/months/weeks before dying for their faith. That's natural! Converts in all religions feel like they have to prove themselves.

As for those who had been "bad Muslims" before (i.e. drinking alcohol, partying etc): Once they get radicalized they realize how much bad deeds they have collected. They don't know if they can make it to heaven even if they become very devote from now on. Some are so desperate that they die in Jihad as it is a guaranteed ticket to paradise.
-> So yes, Islam has a lot to do with it. People who love this life (e.g. rich people) have less incentive/motivation to die for their faith but without the Islamic belief (which I just mentioned) people don't become suicide bombers. Do you know how many poor Hindus there are in India? How many poor Buddhists all over South-East Asia? How come they are not constantly in the news because they blew themselves up? Social exclusion is only one piece of the puzzle - albeit it an important one. The other one is Islam.

Looking forward to your response.

Thank you for bringing a thoughtful post in a thread so far dominated by kids who have never tasted real life. It's always easy to say that everyone is good and whoever disagrees is a bigot.

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[SahierKHLover]

We could also just rename this thread as "terror attacks". The topic keeps being up to date.

You say you want the topic to be closed and that it give you cancer. Could it be that you can't accept a different view from your own? You just clicked on the like button for some posts you agree with. Then you read mine and couldn't handle it (?) You know who else censores criticism of Islam? The Sharia and most Islamic countries.
Just a thought.

... I am Muslim... I fought these guys... it didn't go well..

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Did you know that Iran had a secular democratically elected president in the 50s? USA didn't like him -> gone -> US puppet was finally overthrown by radicals (called Iranian revolution).

I'm fully aware of that and it pisses me off, considering the US basically created the current middle eastern conditions but no one here wants to acknowledge that, let alone try mend it in a way that doesn't involve heavy artillery

Oil is cool :T

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

... I am Muslim... I fought these guys... it didn't go well..

You fought whom? So you are not in favor of the Sharia?

 

[Deleted User]

Religion, Idiocy and misunderstanding comes into one.
What comes out of it? Oh, terrorist, blind killing because religion told them to, suicide bombing, religion raiding etc.

Well, my word on this topic? That terrorists should use their brain, not machinery.

 

[StarTrekVoyager]

@UltraDolphinRevolution Thank you for your very good answer! Actually, thing is that a lot of Muslims actually also 'relativize' Islam. In Morocco, from where my parents come, Islam is just part of the tradition. Going to the mosque is part of everyone's routine, like the traditional work&sleep. Like the Ramadan. People do it because it's a habit, not really because of religious reasons. And a lot of people seem to forget this. In Morocco, a random farmer or worker or anything will always be kind, and they just don't care about if you're Jew, Catholic or Atheist. They'll say you the almost-mandatory welcome sentences, and even bless you in the name of Allah, but that doesn't mean they want you to be a Muslim, that only means they want the best for you. King of Morocco recently even pronounced a speech where he says that everyone of any beliefs should leave in peace, and you'll not find anyone in the country who disagrees. But thing is, next to Morocco there is Saudi Arabia, Iran & co, who give a bad reputation to Muslims by their dumbness.

 

[SahierKHLover]

You fought whom? So you are not in favor of the Sharia?

no you dingus I mean these people not the sharia wth is wrong with you

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

So what do you mean by fighting them? You oppose people who are in favor of the Sharia? It is a common problem for Muslims. They like western judicial systems but when you ask them whether they would rather have Sharia law, a lot of them actually confirm it. If you really think Sharia law is divine, of course you are "forced" to be in favor of it. That would include killing someone like me for apparently offending Islam.
Many so-called moderate Muslims actually would agree with laws like this. Apparently more than 1/4 of British Muslims showed sympathy with the Charlie Hebdo terrorists (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html).
The actual number of people might be higher. I sure wouldn't answer truthfully in a poll like this.

Christians have an excuse because - as I said - Jesus had no political power so he is reported to have said "give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar" and that his kingdom is not from this earth. Christianity was never meant to rule (at least not if you go back to the origins). Jews have "relativized" their divine laws hundreds if not thousands of years ago. E.g. the eye-for-an-eye aspect was actually replaced by money-transfers in real life.

 

[SahierKHLover]

oh shit I thought you were muslim defending Islam shit well here it goes again I am in favor with the sharia of course but the laws about beheading and killing and such only happened back then and there are certain situations for anyone to be able to commits these "acts" and no one on this Earth have committed those acts that would cause the war part of Islam to be in play. I got angered by a racist comment one day and I vented out on here and I fought to protect my religion and guess what read the middle of surah taubah and the ending of surah taubah and then read surah nisa and rahman so many surahs that obviously shows that most of this is true and that some of these revelations were meant for that time and later on changed.

 

[Vipera]

oh shit I thought you were muslim defending Islam shit well here it goes again I am in favor with the sharia of course but the laws about beheading and killing and such only happened back then and there are certain situations for anyone to be able to commits these "acts" and no one on this Earth have committed those acts that would cause the war part of Islam to be in play. I got angered by a racist comment one day and I vented out on here and I fought to protect my religion and guess what read the middle of surah taubah and the ending of surah taubah and then read surah nisa and rahman so many surahs that obviously shows that most of this is true and that some of these revelations were meant for that time and later on changed.

You have lost all credibility after you said you are in favor of a law that lets adults marry kids and stone people to death. ISIS beheading people is only the tip of the iceberg.

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[Abu_Senpai]

You have lost all credibility after you said you are in favor of a law that lets adults marry kids and stone people to death. ISIS beheading people is only the tip of the iceberg.

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Havent non muslims ever married kids? Havent they too raped women and children. What makes islam so special that other religions can get away with it but islam has to be known for such things that happened hundreds of years ago.

We live in a time and age where rape within muslims countries doesnt happen very often. Not saying it never happens but a sane muslim wouldnt ever do such a thing. But it actually occurs more in western countires and many believe because the women are loose but that is an argument i disagree with most of the time

Oh and before you say ISIS does. Let me inform you of the fact that they arent muslims period

 

[Minox]

Havent non muslims ever married kids? Havent they too raped women and children. What makes islam so special that other religions can get away with it but islam has to be known for such things that happened hundreds of years ago.

We live in a time and age where rape within muslims countries doesnt happen very often. Not saying it never happens but a sane muslim wouldnt ever do such a thing. But it actually occurs more in western countires and many believe because the women are loose but that is an argument i disagree with most of the time

Oh and before you say ISIS does. Let me inform you of the fact that they arent muslims period

Please do tell what other religion currently encourages people to marry those not of age?

 

[Abu_Senpai]

Please do tell what other religion currently encourages people to marry those not of age?

Not of age varies from culture to culture

But in islam untill the women is capable of having periods she cant get married

and nor can she consumate the marriage untill she is able to physcially have sexual intercourse


here are my sources


https://www.al-islam.org/religion-al-islam-and-marriage/age-marriage

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam(jump to the conditions section)

Also its important to note that in modern day islam most couples dont get married untill at least 18

Not to mention the fact that the start of a womens period can begin at various different ages. Some women can start have them as early as 11 and others start them later

my source:http://m.kidshealth.org/en/kids/menstruation.html?WT.ac=

 

[TotalInsanity4]

Please do tell what other religion currently encourages people to marry those not of age?

Doesn't Hinduism do that? (Or at least at one point in recent history)

 

[Minox]

Not of age varies from culture to culture

But in islam untill the women is capable of having periods she cant get married

and nor can she consumate the marriage untill she is able to physcially have sexual intercourse


here are my sources


https://www.al-islam.org/religion-al-islam-and-marriage/age-marriage

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam(jump to the conditions section)

Also its important to note that in modern day islam most couples dont get married untill at least 18

Not to mention the fact that the start of a womens period can begin at various different ages. Some women can start have them as early as 11 and others start them later

my source:http://m.kidshealth.org/en/kids/menstruation.html?WT.ac=

When I said of age I meant married before they become a consenting adult ie something along the lines of 18. Just because someone can get pregnant does not mean they're physically and mentally prepared for such a situation and pregnant children face a much higher mortality rate during childbirth. Children should be allowed to be children and grow up to be adults before they're forced to deal with adult obligations.

I also can't help but to notice that you completely avoided my question about what other religions encourage child marriage.

Doesn't Hinduism do that? (Or at least at one point in recent history)

That does indeed seem to be the case. Supposedly that's been on a sharp decline after marriage for children under the age of 18 was banned in India though so hopefully that is a practice that will end.

 

[Vipera]

Havent non muslims ever married kids? Havent they too raped women and children. What makes islam so special that other religions can get away with it but islam has to be known for such things that happened hundreds of years ago.

We live in a time and age where rape within muslims countries doesnt happen very often. Not saying it never happens but a sane muslim wouldnt ever do such a thing. But it actually occurs more in western countires and many believe because the women are loose but that is an argument i disagree with most of the time

Oh and before you say ISIS does. Let me inform you of the fact that they arent muslims period

Marrying kids or even "preordering" marriages has been very frowned upon for centuries now. If we look back thousands of years ago then yes, the age of consent was a lot lower, but just because the average life expectation was too. Everyone has always compiled with the law, except Islam. That gets a free pass, apparently.

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[Abu_Senpai]

When I said of age I meant married before they become a consenting adult ie something along the lines of 18. Just because someone can get pregnant does not mean they're physically and mentally prepared for such a situation and pregnant children face a much higher mortality rate during childbirth. Children should be allowed to be children and grow up to be adults before they're forced to deal with adult obligations.

I also can't help but to notice that you completely avoided my question about what other religions encourage child marriage.


That does indeed seem to be the case. Supposedly that's been on a sharp decline after marriage for children under the age of 18 was banned in India though so hopefully that is a practice that will end.

Ah my bad. I assumed you were referring to Islam only. I now little off other religions that do that but like @TotalInsanity4 said i would assume that the Hindu, Seikh and other more eastern and Asian cultures would do such things. I now its messed up and looked down upon now but it was different back then. Now that isnt me trying to justify it but thats just me stating the differences between the two socities

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Marrying kids or even "preordering" marriages has been very frowned upon for centuries now. If we look back thousands of years ago then yes, the age of consent was a lot lower, but just because the average life expectation was too. Everyone has always compiled with the law, except Islam. That gets a free pass, apparently.

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But that no longer happens. Under 18 marriages dont happen but ofcourse there have been cases in recent years of such things. But it isnt only islam since ive heard of the indian culture that seemed to carry out such acts too. Thats not to blame anyone im just stating the differences between the East and West which will always have its problems

 

[Vipera]

Ah my bad. I assumed you were referring to Islam only. I now little off other religions that do that but like @TotalInsanity4 said i would assume that the Hindu, Seikh and other more eastern and Asian cultures would do such things. I now its messed up and looked down upon now but it was different back then. Now that isnt me trying to justify it but thats just me stating the differences between the two socities

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------




But that no longer happens. Under 18 marriages dont happen but ofcourse there have been cases in recent years of such things. But it isnt only islam since ive heard of the indian culture that seemed to carry out such acts too. Thats not to blame anyone im just stating the differences between the East and West which will always have its problems

Oh yeah?

http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenint...ndinavian-refugee-asylum-centers-despite-ban/

http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...h-authorities-approved-of-child-marriage.html

Totally not happening nowadays.

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[Abu_Senpai]

Oh yeah?

http://nytlive.nytimes.com/womenint...ndinavian-refugee-asylum-centers-despite-ban/

http://speisa.com/modules/articles/...h-authorities-approved-of-child-marriage.html

Totally not happening nowadays.

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Both are from Swden which i diddnt now did such things but then again Islam wasnt mentioned in either article
What my point is that it isnt as widespread as it would have been in past societies

It does happen as i admitted in the post you replied to but it isnt widespread and only every year or so does a case pop up on regards to Islam
other religions and cultures also practiced it at some point too lets not forget and some still do as your sources show

All in all its messed up and should be stopped. It isnt the only thing though since there is also another thing which nearly all religions have practised and that is incest. Another act that needs to be banned