Microsoft employees petition against Hololens contract with US Army

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Those working on Microsoft’s augmented reality headset, the Hololens, are petitioning against the tech giant, as they’ve become upsetted by the potential uses for the device. Last year, Microsoft and the United States Army signed a contract together, so that the technology within the Hololens could be used to create an Integrated Visual Augmentation System, which would “increase lethality by enhancing the ability to detect, decide and engage before the enemy”. The contract is worth about $479 million dollars, with Microsoft’s president Brad Smith defending it, stating, “We believe in the strong defense of the United States and we want the people who defend it to have access to the nation's best technology, including from Microsoft."

A group of employees at Microsoft did not share the same views. Called “Microsoft Workers 4 Good”, they addressed an open letter to the Chief Executive and President of the company on February 22nd, demanding that Microsoft dissolve the contract, enact new ethical guidelines, and prevent the Hololens project from being used to create weapons technology. Some of the workers expressed discontent knowing that they helped develop the technology used in the headset, only for the contract with the Army to be signed after they had worked on Hololens, without their knowledge. Some alleged that they believed their work would instead be going towards the health field, or for space exploration. A petition formed by the same group received over 100 signatures in the first day.

Microsoft has not given an official response at this time, only saying that they “appreciate feedback from employees”.

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Weren't the internet and mobile phones originally made for the military. I think this will be good because they will have to make it good enough for the military to be able to rely on it and then they can release a more affordable model for the consumer.
 

kuwanger

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would you prefer the soldiers/police etc to have more or less information when going into a fight,

Awesome how you almost immediately took a military contract and turned it into a discussion about parlaying that into militarization of the police. As far as "information when going into a fight"? I'd say the large problem we have in the US is too many police "going into a fight" that is their own making. If anything, it shows exactly what happens when you have so little consequence for killing innocent bystanders. Put another way, I wouldn't go around invoking US police in defense of the military; I actually believe the US military has better standards.

that's not to mention the whole idea of self crippling for moral ethicacy, knowing full well that other countries will not have these same limitations forced upon them by themselves,

Which is why we should strap arm mounted nukes to our soldiers. Why let a little thing like morals or ethics get in the way of being top dog. Oh, and yea, the US defense spending (not including actual war) is 51.3% of all US defense spending on Earth. So, no, most countries couldn't afford half the crap the US buys. All you're really supporting is egregious overspending by the US government to fill the pockets of US military contractors.

Keyword is 'defense' of the US.

The US definition of "defense" is "Our strategy is this: We will fight them over there so we do not have to face them in the United States of America." So, let's not pretend that this is all about protecting our borders against some sort of actual invasion. At this point with MAD, I'm not sure how much "defense" the US can really have.
 
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Benja81

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The US definition of "defense" is "Our strategy is this: We will fight them over there so we do not have to face them in the United States of America." So, let's not pretend that this is all about protecting our borders against some sort of actual invasion. At this point with MAD, I'm not sure how much "defense" the US can really have.

LOL well I knew someone would make this point. Look I'm not a slave to the left or right, I'm a realist. Have there been situations in the past where we over-stepped our place, absolutely! As a citizen can only hope that enough was learned from those mistakes, by the right people (talking long-term not our current admin). There were also plenty of times that the US did exactly as they should and defended a helpless, autonomous country from being taken over by a dictator. Anyone who says either one of those things is not true is bias in one way or the other.
 

kuwanger

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As a citizen can only hope that enough was learned from those mistakes, by the right people (talking long-term not our current admin). There were also plenty of times that the US did exactly as they should and defended a helpless, autonomous country from being taken over by a dictator. Anyone who says either one of those things is not true is bias in one way or the other.

Defending other countries is not defense of the US. So right off, we can only presume that this would be used in those case in direct contradiction to stated intent. Further, long-term I don't really have a lot of hope given just how many times "the right people" have went gung-ho into conflicts that have lasted decades over, at best, very dubious bases. Clearly, the only lessons they've learned is "war is profitable [for me]" and "war increases US influence in the world". When people try to talk reasonable--not necessarily pacifist--about US involvement in the world, people invoke 9/11 or the like--they do that a lot less now days, since I guess they feel they've mostly beaten that horse to death.

Sorry, US behavior in the "short-term" has really burned through my trust of politicians in power to do the right thing. Reading through history of before I was born only makes me realize just how much this is not some sort of new thing--influence war mongering is at least as old as the gilded age. Yes, there's always the potential that this technology like many others developed by/for the military will end up having a net good in the world. I can totally understand, though, people not wanting to personally being involved in the development because they really don't know how it will really turn out. As a recent Slashdot thread about this very subject, Einstein pushed for the US to develop the Atomic Bomb out of fear of what the Nazis having it first would mean. Then the US used two on Japan. And we're now permanent stuck at the brink of Armageddon.
 
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lincruste

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Part of the discussion is what drives one to not follow their moral values. I would fully agree with the moral views expressed by the employee group. But unfortunately its not always cut and dried as to how to react to those morals.
Thing is: if you have moral values, don't fucking buy anything from or work for Microsoft.
 

Benja81

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I agree with just about everything you said there, and very well said, you make some good points.

I do have some thoughts though:

Defending other countries is not defense of the US.

You could argue that for sure, but look what happened with Germany in the 30s-40s. So we should just sit back until a dictatorship/fascists gets big enough, and takes over enough countries, for us to care? Then we can survive by the skin of our teeth, and join in at the last second, just like back then? I know I wouldn't count on that, that's why the UN was created. The US should only go through them, though. I think it is/was a mistake to ever go around them in anything involving other countries but our own soil.

Then the US used two on Japan. And we're now permanent stuck at the brink of Armageddon.

So either way one of them would have it 1st (US or Germany). How would the world have turned out if Germany got it first? Japanese citizens did not deserve to have any bomb dropped on them, so I could never say that was the right thing. I think that they DID need to use it, but they could have attacked a military target and with just 1 bomb, never a need to use 2 of them at the same time to prove we had the technology.
 
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kuwanger

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You could argue that for sure, but look what happened with Germany in the 30s-40s. So we should just sit back until a dictatorship/fascists gets big enough, and takes over enough countries, for us to care?

Point one, we cared from day one. Just not not enough to risk American lives. Point two, no we shouldn't stand by and watch an adversarial country take over large parts of the war as part of global conquest, but that logic is what lead to the US fighting many wars in the 20th century. Meanwhile, the US itself is guilty of doing precisely the same thing--if democracy meant communism, we were more than happy to support dictatorship/fascism so long as it meant further US influence. Point three, Russia and China both are doing precisely the above and the US is doing near jack shit about it. Do we want to start WW3 to prevent WW3? I don't have the answer.

So either way one of them would have it 1st (US or Germany). How would the world have turned out if Germany got it first? Japan citizens did not deserve to have any bomb dropped on them, so I could never say that was the right thing. I think that they DID need to use it, but they could have attacked a military target and with just 1 bomb, never a need to use 2 of them at the same time to prove we had the technology.

The problem with the Germany "what if" is that Germany "knew" it needed to win the war now and couldn't wait for some sort of WMD to be developed, so it's not really a sort of reasonable "what if" to argue. Having said that, it would have undoubtedly been quite terrible if Germany got the bomb first. About as bad or worse? If Germany and the US got the bomb around the same time. As for using an atomic bomb on "[just] a military target"? There's a reason they're called Weapons of Mass Destruction. Attacking Japan itself with a nuke for just military targets would have been nearly impossible--and let's acknowledge that like it or not, total war implies there aren't really any non-military targets. At sea, a nuke would have been mostly pointless and would never really drive home the message of just how bad nuclear weapons are.

In short, if you think using a nuke was necessary, then I don't see how they could have used it differently. As for one vs two? If you only use one and they don't surrender, it makes it look like it was a one shot deal. Using two makes it seem like you have plenty more to use.
 

depaul

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So in simpler terms those glasses will have "night vision" and "thermal vision"... So that soldiers can "see through walls" and through obscurity using infrared rays emitted from living bodies... That is what I understood..
 
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Benja81

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I feel like you're playing both sides of the argument at times, or are you just playing devil's advocate?

Point one, we cared from day one. Just not not enough to risk American lives.

Nothing in this country is a matter of "how much we care." Most tough decisions are split down the middle in public opinion, or else they prob wouldn't be considered 'tough.' In a true democracy nothing can happen until there is a majority opinion, and another reason for the creation of the UN.

Point two, no we shouldn't stand by and watch an adversarial country take over large parts of the war as part of global conquest, but that logic is what lead to the US fighting many wars in the 20th century. Meanwhile, the US itself is guilty of doing precisely the same thing--if democracy meant communism, we were more than happy to support dictatorship/fascism so long as it meant further US influence.

I think by "we" you mean corrupt/misguided US officials. We should not interfere with that stuff unless you have a situation where a country is being taken over by another, and again in which case it should always be a UN decision, not a US one.

Point three, Russia and China both are doing precisely the above and the US is doing near jack shit about it. Do we want to start WW3 to prevent WW3? I don't have the answer.

The UN did not sit back and let Russia go ahead and just take over Georgia like they prob wanted to, in the Russia/Georgia conflict. Same thing would be the case if China were doing that. Like if tomorrow they decided to invade Japan, you don't think the UN would defend Japan as one of our allies? If they did not then it would certainly be the end of the world as we know it.

The problem with the Germany "what if" is that Germany "knew" it needed to win the war now and couldn't wait for some sort of WMD to be developed, so it's not really a sort of reasonable "what if" to argue.

Germany was working on the bomb and had some of the world's best scientists. Not a matter of if but when they would have had it. Granted, opinion is split on how close they actually were to having it, but idk how can you say its not a what if?

Attacking Japan itself with a nuke for just military targets would have been nearly impossible--and let's acknowledge that like it or not, total war implies there aren't really any non-military targets. At sea, a nuke would have been mostly pointless and would never really drive home the message of just how bad nuclear weapons are. In short, if you think using a nuke was necessary, then I don't see how they could have used it differently.

There is always a better solution than bombing an innocent population. Since I'm not a war general from the 1940s I wont pretend to try and come up with a great example for that b/c its pointless, but I do believe there is always a better solution than that, if you look for it.

As for one vs two? If you only use one and they don't surrender, it makes it look like it was a one shot deal. Using two makes it seem like you have plenty more to use.

I get that, and I'm sure that's why they did it; but they also could have easily dropped one, and then accept surrender, OR if no surrender then drop the 2nd..
 
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LowEndC

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so? fire that group.

get a lawsuit,
win or settle,
doesnt matter, cuz,
microsoft,
continue contract with army bros.

loss of gross income because of offended little kitties.
doesnt matter, cuz, microsoft.
income returns shortly thereafter from new software/hardware.
cuz, microsoft.
 
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kuwanger

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I feel like you're playing both sides of the argument at times, or are you just playing devil's advocate?

No, I just have complicated feelings/beliefs about things. Often when presented with an argument, I try to address the argument as presented even if certain axioms of the argument I disagree with. Other times, I try to spell why I believe some of the axioms are false or questionable. This is because it's sometimes enough to address others arguments within their own belief systems. Sometimes, I feel it necessary to spell out why I don't agree with others beliefs. Having said all that, I wouldn't say I've never played devil's advocate; I just don't tend to.

Nothing in this country is a matter of "how much we care." Most tough decisions are split down the middle in public opinion, or else they prob wouldn't be considered 'tough.' In a true democracy nothing can happen until there is a majority opinion, and another reason for the creation of the UN.

Often providing food and military aid goes a long way in fighting a war. In WW1 and WW2, the US did that for a very long time before devoting actual troops to the conflicts. Perhaps that was more to do with war profiteering than actually caring; I don't really know.

While, we don't have a true democracy. We have a representative democracy, of which frequently is not representative of the will of the people. As Douglas Adam put it, we vote for the lizard people and he we hate them. So, I don't necessarily trust democracy. Still, perhaps I'd trust more an actual vote by the people for war over what the norm has been. Oh, and the UN is not remotely a democracy. China, Russia, France, the UK, and the US all have veto power over most things. This is by design precisely to form consensus, not to support majority opinion.

The UN did not sit back and let Russia go ahead and just take over Georgia like they prob wanted to, in the Russia/Georgia conflict. Same thing would be the case if China were doing that. Like if tomorrow they decided to invade Japan, you don't think the UN would defend Japan as one of our allies? If they did not then it would certainly be the end of the world as we know it.

I was speaking of Crimea. You do raise the point, though, that many members of the UN would defend Japan or many other nations--I think, specifically the US would intervene given our explicit protection arrangement and that's not something I think China is willing to risk. How would we feel, though, if China were to take over a few African countries in all but name? Would we look the other way mostly? Maybe some token sanctions? China isn't there yet, but I wouldn't put it past them.

Germany was working on the bomb and had some of the world's best scientists. Not a matter of if but when they would have had it. Granted, opinion is split on how close they actually were to having it, but idk how can you say its not a what if?

Because of this--it's a long read but spells out the many, many ways Germany was not on the road to an Atomic Bomb. There's also the fact that (1) the US started later and still got there first which rather proves how non-devoted Germany was to the task and (2) the US specifically lured in a lot of "the world's best scientists" because apparently a non-warzone, economically well-off country with substantial funds to see the program through is a lot more compelling than Nazism.

There is always a better solution than bombing an innocent population. Since I'm not a war general from the 1940s I wont pretend to try and come up with a great example for that b/c its pointless, but I do believe there is always a better solution than that, if you look for it.

Maybe there is. I've never actually heard any specific arguments made, though, on what specific military target(s) should have been nuked. Until I hear at least that and some rational on the why, I stand by the position that if nukes were necessary the used ones were "good" ones. Like most things, not being a 1940s war general for example, I don't know if nukes were necessary. :/

I get that, and I'm sure that's why they did it; but they also could have easily dropped one, and then accept surrender, OR if no surrender then drop the 2nd..

AFAIK, that's what they did. They demanded unconditional surrender, waited, and then dropped the second one. One could argue they should have waited longer--they only waited three days. The second bomb was dropped the day after the Soviet Union joined the war against Japan, and perhaps that would have been enough if given a few more days. Still, it took six more days after the second bomb (with behind the scenes negotiations) for Japan to officially surrender.
 
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Hells Malice

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The nutbars really come out in full force when these kinds of threads hit.

This is pretty much just another day in the office. Most technological advances benefit the military. It's also irrelevant to how much the US spends on their military. If they didn't pay this way for the technology, they'd pay another way. This way is actually probably cheaper overall.

Either way it really doesn't matter. This petition will do nothing and go nowhere. This technology will get where it's going one way or another, with or without them. They're just making their lives more difficult because they failed to realize what the technology might be used for. The world ain't all happiness and rainbows.
 

Kioku

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Heaven forbid we advance in the military. M$ employees can go suck dicks.
I don't know what your deal is, lately. You've been rather hostile. Especially toward people who don't deserve it... Yes, MS employees are people.
 
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Clydefrosch

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They can use it even without the contract, can't they? The contract just means its slightly more accessible and they have a say in changing details?
 

Ritsuki

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I always have a hard time with this because it's some kind of half assed reaction. The problem isn't military equipment becoming more and more lethal and makes killing people easier, it's that they don't want to be a part of it. But I don't see them fighting against drones, military AI development etc... As long as they are not directly concerned, it's like they don't care. If it's not Microsoft, someone else will do it.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Heaven forbid we advance in the military. M$ employees can go suck dicks.
The irony when you internet to say that when it's basically military tech gone public
 

grossaffe

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But I don't see them fighting against drones, military AI development etc... As long as they are not directly concerned, it's like they don't care. If it's not Microsoft, someone else will do it.
Just because they're not writing letters about other things, doesn't mean they don't care. They aren't actively involved in those other things. Perhaps they turned down jobs that would involve those things and instead chose to work on consumer electronics rather than getting involved in helping kill people.

The irony when you internet to say that when it's basically military tech gone public
The world has more nuance than "things that have some sort of connection with the military and things that don't". This will blow your mind, but as I previously stated, I straight up rejected even discussing a position about working on drones because I wanted nothing to do with drone strikes and the like. And yet I am currently in the defense industry working on other military systems that I am okay with. Because, you know, there's nuance in the world.
 
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