The U.S. is more dangerously divided than any other wealthy democracy. Is there a way back from the brink? (Yascha Mounk)

[CommanderCool]

There should be a “…” icon at the top of the thread - click it, then find the “Unwatch” option. Sadly, you can’t actually “unwatch” what you’ve witnessed, we don’t have the technology for that yet, but it *will* stop the notifications.

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cool thanks.

 

[Oddx]

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tru...war-flying-confederate-flag/story?id=71656456
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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-confederate-idUSKCN24K0I0
Article headline: Trump says Confederate flag proud symbol of U.S. South



Unless you want to tell me waving a flag that represented the side of slavery, in the same breath as a right wing president is not in support of slavery, and it's somehow a happen chance.
Like defending Charlottesville and saying there was good sides on both sides when the rhetoric openly called back to either the nazi's or KKK. I think it was leaning on the nazi's since they had a slogan saying "jews won't replace us" that they chanted.

Oh Right
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...ke-says-of-course-trump-voters-are-his-voters
headline
"Former KKK Leader David Duke Says 'Of Course' Trump Voters Are His Voters"

Tl:dr
Yes sir, The confederates were conservative... If they weren't, why would they still fight racial marriage equality. have both trump (a representive of the Republican party, which is conservative), and the confederate flag(representation of slavery) together.

politicians are chameleons, throughout time terms like left, right, conservative, liberal, democrat, republican, etc get shifted around, and these extra terms just help muddy the waters by design. You link modern flags with names printed on them as proof. all it proves is someone was clueless of history.

before responding please go look up which group of people actually recorded votes to/and free the slaves and the complete lack of from the other group, maybe you will be surprised.

 

[Deleted member 586536]

politicians are chameleons, throughout time terms like left, right, conservative, liberal, democrat, republican, etc get shifted around,

left and right don't shift, and the following terms, progressive and conservative don't. A political party, or parties, do however.

Leftism has a root that can be traced. As the same with the right.

and these extra terms just help muddy the waters by design.

Eh no. They have meaning.

You link modern flags with names printed on them as proof. all it proves is someone was clueless of history.

Republicans of today live in the south, correct? The rust belt if you would. It's these same Republicans that complain about gay people existing, or trans people existing. Boil it down to what it is, which is fear of difference combined with hate. And their action is to fight change. "No, trans people aren't really people, it's just mental illness" they say. "The gay's a brainwashing our children" They say.

In which way is that kind of rhetoric, any different than the language Dixiecrat used to explain why they should keep slaves, or explain why slaves were just "naturally inferior"

I find it strange that if your going to say that I'm clueless of history. Then your clearly clueless of the connections I'm drawing, the republican party's reasoning for being against choice regarding abortion was "it's states rights problem"
The very same argument slave owners used to try to keep slaves.

 

[CraddaPoosta]

left and right don't shift, and the following terms, progressive and conservative don't. A political party, or parties, do however.

Leftism has a root that can be traced. As the same with the right.


Eh no. They have meaning.


Republicans of today live in the south, correct? The rust belt if you would. It's these same Republicans that complain about gay people existing, or trans people existing. Boil it down to what it is, which is fear of difference combined with hate. And their action is to fight change. "No, trans people aren't really people, it's just mental illness" they say. "The gay's a brainwashing our children" They say.

In which way is that kind of rhetoric, any different than the language Dixiecrat used to explain why they should keep slaves, or explain why slaves were just "naturally inferior"

I find it strange that if your going to say that I'm clueless of history. Then your clearly clueless of the connections I'm drawing, the republican party's reasoning for being against choice regarding abortion was "it's states rights problem"
The very same argument slave owners used to try to keep slaves.

No one said "trans people" aren't people. We're saying that gender dysphoria IS a mental illness as classified by the APA, and that the way to deal with this mental disorder is not to mutilate your genitals and convince CHILDREN that they can CHOOSE their gender. There are other ways to deal with this socially constructed mental disorder.

Please show me on this doll where mean, evil Republicans hurt you.

 

[LainaGabranth]

No one said "trans people" aren't people. We're saying that gender dysphoria IS a mental illness as classified by the APA, and that the way to deal with this mental disorder is not to mutilate your genitals and convince CHILDREN that they can CHOOSE their gender. There are other ways to deal with this socially constructed mental disorder.

Please show me on this doll where mean, evil Republicans hurt you.

To be honest every time you talk I'm starting to think libertarianism is the real mental disorder.

 

[CraddaPoosta]

To be honest every time you talk I'm starting to think libertarianism is the real mental disorder.

Sir, stop talking to me.

 

[LainaGabranth]

Sir, stop talking to me.

I'm not a sir so it doesn't apply to me ;^)

 

[Deleted member 586536]

No one said "trans people" aren't people. We're saying that gender dysphoria IS a mental illness as classified by the APA, and that the way to deal with this mental disorder is not to mutilate your genitals and convince CHILDREN that they can CHOOSE their gender.

Already you obviously don't understand trans people at all, or listening to medical field you supposedly pull from. gender dysphoria is because of a mismatch. Your brain is telling you something other than what your body is. The only solution we have is to bring the body closer to what the mind is expecting. That can be done through hormones at the appropriate age. And much later on, the person can change their genitals.

Nearly every single person in the medical field recommends gender affirming care if the patient has gender dysphoria. Which is funny that your ignoring.

Post automatically merged: Dec 31, 2022

For example, people with gender dysphoria have an obscenely high likely hood to commit suicide. Not only does that likely-hood go down by miles with support from family members and gender affirming care, but they become more comfortable with themselves. It could bring back that person, who closed away because of depression stemming from it.

 

[CraddaPoosta]

Already you obviously don't understand trans people at all, or listening to medical field you supposedly pull from. gender dysphoria is because of a mismatch. Your brain is telling you something other than what your body is. The only solution we have is to bring the body closer to what the mind is expecting. That can be done through hormones at the appropriate age. And much later on, the person can change their genitals.

Nearly every single person in the medical field recommends gender affirming care if the patient has gender dysphoria. Which is funny that your ignoring.

You claimed that people on the right do not view "trans people" as people. This is an absolutely false argument. No one sees someone with a mental disorder as being less than human. We just disagree on the treatment process. You support enabling of a mental disorder. We support therapy that does not mutilate the body.

Please tell me what is evil about this. You CANNOT surgically alter your chromosomes. You cannot turn a penis into a vagina, period. You can't just grow ovaries or testicles. Transition or "gender-affirming surgery" is an absolute farce of medicine, and only produces fake versions of the original.

You are the party of tolerance, right? Tolerate the fact that many people, MOST people, reject your claims that taking chemicals to be a better fake version of the gender you can never be could possibly be a safe and healthy treatment for the severe mental disorder that is gender dysphoria.

Leave those kids alone.

 

[RetroGen]

And what if gender dysphoria is very much genuine and (some) libertarians actively use their coercive power to deny these people the liberty to live their lives as they see fit? That's counter to foundational principles of personal liberty, making the political position self-contradictory and dubiously motivated.

 

[LainaGabranth]

And what if gender dysphoria is very much genuine and (some) libertarians actively use their coercive power to deny these people the liberty to live their lives as they see fit? That's counter to foundational principles of personal liberty, making the political position self-contradictory and dubiously motivated.

"Libertarians" are just Republicans who love weed and hate age of consent laws. That's all. It's an ideology entirely centered around larping like you're unique when you're as basic as it gets.

 

[Deleted member 586536]

We just disagree on the treatment process. You support enabling of a mental disorder. We support therapy that does not mutilate the body.

So you disagree with the doctors, the physiologists, who all say that gender affirming care works, that it stops them from being nearly as depressed and suicidal.

You'd want to deny pre-teens and teens the right to live. How fucked do you have to be?

 

[CraddaPoosta]

And what if gender dysphoria is very much real and (some) libertarians actively use their coercive power to deny these people the liberty to live their lives as they see fit? That's counter to foundational principles of personal liberty, making the political position self-contradictory and dubiously motivated.

That's the entire point, my friend. If they weren't trying to force us to call them 'ma'am' when they have stubble and an Adam's Apple, we'd all be cool. The problem exists when others try to FORCE other people into a specific set of behavior.
BE the princess you always dreamed of. Wear the biggest fake titties you can find. Rock that dress. Slay, queen!

Just don't try to DEMAND that I view you as a woman, or call you 'ma'am'. That is how liberty works. You live your life, I live mine, neither of us fucks with the other.

Why is that so hard for you liberals to do? Why is it IMPOSSIBLE for people who believe in gender fluidity to do?

Give the same respect and tolerance you are demanding, hypocrites. If you want to be left alone to live your fantasy, then leave the rest of us the fuck alone, and just get on with your business. That's a solution that works for everybody.

 

[Deleted member 586536]

That's like saying if someone suffers under chronic depression, and suicidal tendencies, that they don't deserve medication because it's a "mental disorder" because you disagree with the treatment method.

It's obtuse and obscene.

 

[AncientBoi]

THIS is what tRUMP's legacy has done to us [.]

 

[RetroGen]

Liberty for me, but not for thee (LGBTQ+). That is the libertarian view being presented here. It should be no surprise that such a bigoted view is strongly rejected.

 

[CraddaPoosta]

So you disagree with the doctors, the physiologists, who all say that gender affirming care works, that it stops them from being nearly as depressed and suicidal.

You'd want to deny pre-teens and teens the right to live. How fucked do you have to be?

Absolutely NOTHING I said comes close to "denying pre-teens and teens" "THE RIGHT TO LIVE".

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA. What a stupid fucking argument built out of thin air. NO ONE SAID THAT.

NO ONE IS DENYING ANYONE "THE RIGHT TO LIVE".

We're just saying that 11-year-old Timmy isn't mentally, emotionally or physically mature enough to decide that he is a girl, and it is because of enablers like YOU that little Timmy wants to chop off his penis and pretend that he is a girl.

We would rather see him in intensive therapy to help him realize that gender is not fluid, that XX and XY exist, and that he doesn't need to harm himself to love himself.

We're the ones trying to save the kids. Not you. Get off that fucking cross. We need the wood.

Liberty for me, but not for thee (LGBTQ+). That is the libertarian view being presented here. It should be no surprise that such a bigoted view is strongly rejected.

What part of "you live your life without trying to force behavior on me" sounds like "liberty for me, but not for thee", to you?

 

[Deleted member 586536]

Why is that so hard for you liberals to do? Why is it IMPOSSIBLE for people who believe in gender fluidity to do?

Why? Because you refuse to treat them with the same respect. If you honestly accidentally "ma'med" a guy, and I mean dick balls, and cis. You would be curtous enough to say "sorry, I meant to say sir"

But if it's someone else, who looks like a guy, talks like a guy, and refers to them as a guy. But you learned they had a vagina one day, that suddenly you would disregard referring to them as a guy, and go out of your way to say her, purely over that? Then simply put, we don't like you because you refuse to be curtous or respect another human being. So why should we be respectful to you.

NO ONE IS DENYING ANYONE "THE RIGHT TO LIVE".

By denying people hormone therapy, by denying who that person is, you're sending them to die. You are trying to legislate them out of existence. You are denying their right to live.

 

[CraddaPoosta]

Why? Because you refuse to treat them with the same respect. If you honestly accidentally "ma'med" a guy, and I mean dick balls, and cis. You would be curtous enough to say "sorry, I meant to say sir"

But if it's someone else, who looks like a guy, talks like a guy, and refers to them as a guy. But you learned they had a vagina one day, that suddenly you would disregard referring to them as a guy, and go out of your way to say her, purely over that? Then simply put, we don't like you because you refuse to be curtous or respect another human being. So why should we be respectful to you.

Who said I treated them any differently? Except, of course, when they try to DEMAND that I lie.

I won't do that. Not for any reason. I will NOT lie to a man's face and call him a woman, just because he is suffering from gender dysphoria. It's wrong to expect me to.

Your example is utterly ridiculous. You are comparing accidentally misgendering someone to refusing to play along with someone's fantasy.

It's OKAY for someone to say no to you. You need to learn how to deal with that. You can't force people to do anything, just because of your feelings. If you want the liberty to be whatever you think you are, you HAVE to accept that others have the liberty to just say, "Nope. Not playing. Go have your tea party or whatever, but I am not calling you 'ma'am'."

If you feel that harms you, that's YOUR problem, because if someone refusing to lie to you to support YOUR lie bothers you, YOU are the one with the problem.

One we wish you would find a better solution for than genital mutilation and permanent hormone therapy. There ARE better, safer solutions than being an enabler.

No one is "denying" them hormone "therapy" if that is what they use their liberty for and choose to do. What part of this is not sinking in?

Go GET your fake titties! Get that offensive penis removed from your "totally female" body! Get all of the PLASTIC SURGERY you want! Rock on witchyo bad self!

Just don't try to force me, demand me, cudgel me, browbeat me, bash me, threaten me or attack me because I noped the fuck out of your little game.

It's OKAY to be told NO! Isn't that what you have been trying to push for years? NO MEANS NO!

Why can't you take your own advice?

 

[Deleted member 586536]

One we wish you would find a better solution for than genital mutilation and permanent hormone therapy. There ARE better, safer solutions than being an enabler.

depression is counted as a mental disorder. Autism is counted as a mental disorder. Bioploar is a mental disorder. How do you exactly "enable" a autistic person. An autistic person, is their own person, it's apart of who they are.
No, you're just looking for an excuse to be an ass hat. To justify the hate you have.

Your example is utterly ridiculous. You are comparing accidentally misgendering someone to refusing to play along with someone's fantasy.

How is it a fantasy when they live among you. How. You see, I live with a trans gender person, two of them. One of them identifies as she. Every person has called her a she, not because she requested, but because she looks, and sound the part.
To random strangers, they see her, as her. Only the people she interacted with a lot, does she have to occasionally ask to refer to her as her. And many of them already default to it.
You would be the type to take that she, and put it to a he, if you learned their genitals. And only by that. If you met her as a random stranger, you would go with she. If you learned what she had, you'd go out of your way to go say he.

That's why I made that example, to show your hypocrisy.

Because we don't identify people by what's in their pants. We use contexts, voice, clothing, body language. Unless your telling me you go check every dude for a cock down there, this shouldn't be disputable.