What sources back up the anti-vaccine movement?

[subcon959]

who said that is ok, It's not ok at all. that's the main reason, every abortion is bad, even if it can "save" thousand of lives(like there's no other way wich i don't believe, or they don't try to find it because of fuc*in up thinking like that), and noone have right to decide if anyone can born or not, doctors, mothers, noone. That's most disgusting bestiality in this sick world.

.. oh lord give me strength.. luckily most of that is off topic so I'm not gonna get into it.

 

[IncredulousP]

I am saddened when I come back to this thread and no sources have been provided

Here's my source: FREEDOM! U-S-A!
U-S-A! Ain't no libral gonna try an stick ME with no needle. Else they gonna have to talk with Mr. Gun here.

 

[GbaNober]

Because currently where still in live experiment process from vaccines.
Vaccine should examine and tested carefully (in long run probably 4+ years for better safety) before putting it on public
but big corp pharma wants to Ru$h their drugs on market.
disturbingly,some politicians abused their position to mandate it by using force,public pressure,obvious/indirect tactics that affect individuals way of living giving them no option but to take the shot but back to my point we should study how the new vaccine works because honestly we don't know the future Side effects of it.

 

[Dakitten]

Because currently where still in live experiment process from vaccines.
Vaccine should examine and tested carefully (in long run probably 4+ years for better safety) before putting it on public
but big corp pharma wants to Ru$h their drugs on market.
disturbingly,some politicians abused their position to mandate it by using force,public pressure,obvious/indirect tactics that affect individuals way of living giving them no option but to take the shot but back to my point we should study how the new vaccine works because honestly we don't know the future Side effects of it.

Four years... to make a vaccine killing millions of people now... because long term side effects can't possibly be imagined by doctors who study chemical interactions for a living and can predict with fairly regular accuracy how things will progress, and cross-check with others using prediction models and review of like products... I'm sorry, is your tin foil hat on too tight, or was this the 5g mind control provoking a response out of ignorance? I figure you're somebody with a great level of distrust in the government and pharmaceutical companies, but presuming that a vaccine that is peer reviewed and utilized successfully world-wide is just a money making apparatus in the face of an actual pandemic that kills rich and poor alike might be a bridge too far.

 

[GbaNober]

Four years... to make a vaccine killing millions of people now... because long term side effects can't possibly be imagined by doctors who study chemical interactions for a living and can predict with fairly regular accuracy how things will progress, and cross-check with others using prediction models and review of like products... I'm sorry, is your tin foil hat on too tight, or was this the 5g mind control provoking a response out of ignorance? I figure you're somebody with a great level of distrust in the government and pharmaceutical companies, but presuming that a vaccine that is peer reviewed and utilized successfully world-wide is just a money making apparatus in the face of an actual pandemic that kills rich and poor alike might be a bridge too far.

"a vaccine that is peer reviewed and utilized Successfully world-wide"
what peer reviewed? Israel with the highest rate of dosage and yet they're one of the world’s highest infection rates
isn't the process of experimenting the drugs still ongoing?

 

[Xzi]

what peer reviewed? Israel with the highest rate of dosage and yet they're one of the world’s highest infection rates

Infections among the vaccinated population are nearly irrelevant. So long as they're asymptomatic or exhibit only mild symptoms, that goes to show the vaccines are doing their job. It's instead hospitalization rates and death rates which hold the most importance.

isn't the process of experimenting the drugs still ongoing?

No. Clinical trials took place before the vaccines were authorized for public use. Science never sleeps and never stops collecting data, of course, but you shouldn't mistake that for being perpetually stuck in the "beta" phase.

 

[Deleted member 514389]

Sources of funding and categorisations of actions here are interesting, and ill served by the common "they is all morons" rhetoric, even if I would think they are all morons even if for different reasons. Whether you know it from Sun Tzu or Rage Against the Machine then "know your enemy" https://www.scienceofstrategy.org/main/content/know-enemy
Follow the money can also be a good one here, all sorts of things from that one if you follow it.

You usually get the
Hippy mothers
Religious types with odd readings of religious texts, some of which might even have made sense if first thought of before disinfectant, germ theory and such like when the local witch was your best bet.
General distrust of authority.

Different flavours are more prevalent in different locales, and have different regional variations as well.
I am told hippy mothers tended to be the Australian problem a few years back, potentially solved by in turn saying "no shot, no school" which means the hippy mothers could not do wine at lunch as they would be home schooling instead.
Religious types actually in Europe is one of the big ones; the Netherlands tending to provide a nice case study here as they are lumped with what sort of became what those in the US will probably associate with the Mennonites (Menno Simons of Friesland, Friesland being a Dutch speaking part of the world for those not familiar with Dutch geography) and Amish. Not limited to that though; all sorts of beliefs pertaining to medicine exist (both other wackadoodle Christians, anti West which includes medicine Islam is a rabbit hole if you want that*, native belief structures and oriental efforts, plus history but more on that in a bit) and make life harder for those that at best note a placebo effect from those practices and would rather go with the chemicals, scans and such approach that... works.
Distrust of authority varies, and authorities give reasons to distrust them all the time.
My favourites probably being the causation-correlation in Africa wherein it has been noted various places are smart enough to note the arrival of those in fancy biohazard suits and all your mates dying of some horrible disease, best point your AK at them just like you do when other arseholes come to town to mess things up) but it is also not limited to that in any way, shape or form and mistrust of authority has different causes, historical (smallpox blankets is a meme at this point but still can inform, and also make things that might be more relevant when it comes to forced treatment a harder affair, if not outright impossible under basic human rights law**) and current, all over the place.

*interesting one there is people fleeing Pakistan for India (one of the leading pharmaceutical producers in the world) tending to bring diseases with them, people went out and were all "we don't care about you trying to cross, however you have this or you don't come in".

**even without the trouble of "see many historical events" then not an easy ethical debate either ("my body, my choice" and all that), also says nothing of the pragmatism concern of whatever powers you give your presently totally benevolent and competent government now (see also "utter fantasy") will be available when some/the other guys get back in (and they will, or at least will have to be assumed to have it happen one day even by a fluke). Something to consider when the presently pondered/threatened/contemplated "vaccine passports" are being discussed.

There are potential scientific reasonings behind things here; anything you put in you will have a side effect, however you don't need to be a medic to say passing sore arm is far preferable to insides pouring out of you*** (and then probably 15-20 days later the same for all/no small amount of your nearest and dearest), however part of the risk-reward equation does see people leap to extremes (there is a fractional risk of reaction and medical negligence, neither of which would happen if you sat at home instead and pondered why if everybody else has car insurance that you need it for you). People love them some extremes and gruesome stuff as well; see most medical advertising in the US, biologically driven as well -- checking behind the bush for a lion is tedious when I could be charging off after dinner but even if it is only one in 300 then if I have to go hunting every day then you are not going to make it more than a year or two... we are all the descendants of the ones that checked behind the bush with the handful of sociopaths not being concerned by that. More sociological things vis a vis group vs individualism (there are political concerns here, and not necessarily the ones people think -- left vs right has some interesting things to ponder but by and large does nothing for the whole picture as individualism and collectivism, to say nothing of its massive variation between cultures, has different notions within each of those).


***lack of first hand knowledge/witnessing of things has also reduced their scariness to some if only hearing about it in a book, or indeed taking the words that only heard about it in a book. Especially as most people that have seen things be a widespread affair are now very old ( https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-history/developments-by-year - average age is about 70 and most things there cured by the early 1960s, if not earlier, so if you wanted to be say 13 to properly comprehend things you can do the rest of the maths, and that is even before grandma talking about how she lost 3 siblings being much like grandpa talking about losing 3 buddies in the war for the in one ear-out other stakes).

Lack of scientific literacy (and scientists are generally awful moral touchstones, and even worse PR peeps as most are not even pretty) also goes both ways. Someone doing what the bespectacled person in the white coat says is probably going have a positive outcome even if they have no clue what actually just happened to them and would need months to properly understand it (if at all), if the same ignorance also means they are going to struggle when some bad science (poor method, funding conflicts, poor sampling... it really does not matter) comes along, even more so if "a lie spreads halfway around the world while the truth is strapping on its shoes (and then probably needs a lecture to explain why the lie is a lie)" has its underlying reasoning carry across.

Can also carry across to non vaccine stuff as well. Scary one from a few years back was it was noted many would be mothers were not getting pre natal vitamin k injections and often cited similar concerns. https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/142/2/e20173743 is for newborns but still interesting reading.

Papers then, not that papers mean much to many of these.
Adverse reactions and prevalence thereof.
The autism-MMR thing. Be it the original, or ponderings of mercury (thimerosal). You also get the Africa men in biohazard suits type related thing where autism gets diagnosed after infant vaccinations are concluded (mainly because those end about the time the first signs of autism tend to show up in early play and development).
There is a fair bit of guesswork involved in some things as well; your annual flu vaccine is usually whatever strain pops in Australia earlier in the year (winter being in the northern hemisphere's summer) being the most likely to go worldwide so spin up a batch of that (and made troubled this time around by there not really being a flu season what with "stay in your home, citizen", possibly further by what little flu there was meaning what minor immunity might have been had being absent/diminished now).
Efficacy of the vaccines at producing antibodies is one I have heard a few times. Both as a general effect of the vaccine in question (bad batch, improper testing... all fun), and interactions (see cancer suffers and efficacy of covid vaccines if you want a more recent one).
Lack of testing of some of the vaccines. Claims the FDA did not do this or that might well be true (or true to some extent -- proper testing does take years, and if a virus only appeared and was sequenced in the last year then you might have to go for a lesser "will probably still be OK" type nod than your most convicted choice, especially when the lesser nod will probably still be just fine/acceptable casualties and potentially save more than a few lives and a lot of funds treating things that mere numbers say will be the case), and they have certainly not shown themselves to be ever competent or incorruptible either (addyi probably being my favourite for them being bullied and cajoled), never mind the wider government (see most drug laws, censorship and more besides). There are also still quite a few questions about things given to various military types despite dubious testing before various wars.

Despite my bluster above I am also aware of the lack of embracing by medics and wider scientist followers. This has swept up a few that might have one of the few genuine reasons to avoid vaccinations; immunodeficiency, allergy (wheat and eggs are often key ingredients in bulk vaccine production, also two common allergies these days it seems) as it will then be the anti set that listens to them or does not treat them like pariahs (simplistic "no vaccinations = bad" mantra of many being then rather tricky when your crotch fruit can't handle a chicken ovulation without dying, and "would love to if we could" falling on deaf ears).
Even without my snark I am also aware that the many paragraphs I just wrote are far less meaningful than "my cousin says" on a silly picture on facebook for most people, or indeed the Australian thing of make it inconvenient to live otherwise.

And we haven't touched "the long term" yet.

All that aside....

The biggest problem with science is and always was "money".
How many things / people can claim to be independant ?

 

[Xzi]

The biggest problem with science is and always was "money".
How many things / people can claim to be independant ?

The economy is just people, no government or corporation on earth stands to benefit from a majority of their workforce dying off. So even taking the profit motive into account, it makes zero sense to release an ineffective or dangerous vaccine to the public.

 

[Dakitten]

And we haven't touched "the long term" yet.

All that aside....

The biggest problem with science is and always was "money".
How many things / people can claim to be independant ?

The biggest problem with society is the concept of money, perhaps. Corporations and politicians have absolutely cut the masses to enrich the few. Individuals in their fields, however, span countries, ideals, and economics and have a body of their peers who routinely form an educated consensus with facts not obfuscated by politics. Budgets for medical safety nets might be easy to taint, but research findings are a different story... just ask Andrew Wakefield.

"a vaccine that is peer reviewed and utilized Successfully world-wide"
what peer reviewed? Israel with the highest rate of dosage and yet they're one of the world’s highest infection rates
isn't the process of experimenting the drugs still ongoing?

The documentation on the safety and efficacy on Pfizer and its equivalents worldwide has been peer reviewed and studied at great length by professionals. Israel's issues are many, and their outbreak is tragic, but the scientific community is gathering the data of what is going on there in order to combat the outbreak elsewhere. It has also proven many of the positive aspects of the vaccine at present. There are experiments being done regarding booster shots and variations to improve efficacy and adjust the amount of active ingredients, but it isn't being done in some nefarious plan to disease the population.

 

[TheCasketMan]

Reason is freedom. Why do we have to put something in our bodies if the government tells us to. I respect your decision if you decide to put 10 doses in your bodies, so I expect you to respect my choice not to. If I die from covid, then that’s on me.

 

[djpannda]

Because currently where still in live experiment process from vaccines.
Vaccine should examine and tested carefully (in long run probably 4+ years for better safety) before putting it on public
but big corp pharma wants to Ru$h their drugs on market.
disturbingly,some politicians abused their position to mandate it by using force,public pressure,obvious/indirect tactics that affect individuals way of living giving them no option but to take the shot but back to my point we should study how the new vaccine works because honestly we don't know the future Side effects of it

Reason is freedom. Why do we have to put something in our bodies if the government tells us to. I respect your decision if you decide to put 10 doses in your bodies, so I expect you to respect my choice not to. If I die from covid, then that’s on me.

Its amazing what people don't understand the Gravity of the situation. 4 million died in 2 year. YES. its a 97% survival rate. but the issue is MUTATION. The more the virus Travels the stronger it will become.. I know a lot of people don't believe in Human Evolution... But Bacteria and Viral mutations happen regular... We are literally just one MUTATION away from the Reverse DEATH RATE of 97%!! You're willing to die for a sham of political reason ( thats your right) the issue is its A FUCKING VIRUS it SPREADS!!.. meaning your exposing others to it. and that Nullifies you right to unabashed "Freedom".

 

[TheCasketMan]

Its amazing what people don't understand the Gravity of the situation. 4 million died in 2 year. YES. its a 97% survival rate. but the issue is MUTATION. The more the virus Travels the stronger it will become.. I know a lot of people don't believe in Human Evolution... But Bacteria and Viral mutations happen regular... We are literally just one MUTATION away from the Reverse DEATH RATE of 97%!! You're willing to die for a sham of political reason ( thats your right) the issue is its A FUCKING VIRUS it SPREADS!!.. meaning your exposing others to it. and that Nullifies you right to unabashed "Freedom".

If you’re vaccinated, then aren’t you supposed to be protected from the virus or at least prevent severe hospitalization. Yes the virus will spread regardless if of your vaccination status, that’s the point of a virus. Vaccinated people has been spreading it as much as unvaccinated. If you are vaccinated and you feel unsafe next to an unvaccinated, then you should be questioning the efficiency of the vaccine itself.

Mutations are normal. Even if everyone in the world is vaccinated, a new variant of coronavirus can emerge. Remember it is the NOVEL coronavirus. It supposedly originated from animals and then transferred to humans, so we could get a brand new corona type virus. What’s next vaccinate all the animals in the world?

 

[Tomato123]

The autism-MMR thing. Be it the original, or ponderings of mercury (thimerosal). You also get the Africa men in biohazard suits type related thing where autism gets diagnosed after infant vaccinations are concluded (mainly because those end about the time the first signs of autism tend to show up in early play and development).

The Autism argument with vaccines really pisses me off. I and many of my friends have Autism and can personally vouch that we haven't gotton it from vaccines or anything. It's not something you can just 'catch'. You are born with it and just because you have it, it usually doesn't even really mean anything bad. Many of us can function perfectly fine depending on the type. (In fact, I wouldn't be nearly as good as I am with technology and specifically computers if not for it.)

 

[djpannda]

If you’re vaccinated, then aren’t you supposed to be protected from the virus or at least prevent severe hospitalization. Yes the virus will spread regardless if of your vaccination status, that’s the point of a virus. Vaccinated people has been spreading it as much as unvaccinated. If you are vaccinated and you feel unsafe next to an unvaccinated, then you should be questioning the efficiency of the vaccine itself.

Mutations are normal. Even if everyone in the world is vaccinated, a new variant of coronavirus can emerge. Remember it is the NOVEL coronavirus. It supposedly originated from animals and then transferred to humans, so we could get a brand new corona type virus. What’s next vaccinate all the animals in the world?

Mutatuion are normal when its a happens once in a long time Frame. We have Covid19 mutation at least 5 different times in 2 years.. that is cause for alarm. And QUESTION THE EFFICIENCY OF THE VACCINe? ANY PERSON THAT Knows middle school math knows what 100%is the Vaccine was around 95% effect with the normal strain. Delta is around 40-60% NONE OF THOSE NUMBER ARE 100%.... meaning YOU can still get it.. Don't be the type of person that tries to sue the Condom company when you get Cymidia knowing the other person has it.. the box Clearly state 98% effect... and maybe don't fuck around with Cymidia in General ... You acting like Vaccination are NEW!! Being from the USA You got several vaccines already or..your not allowed to go to school.
edit .. and YES that the WHOLE POINT OF THE MEDICAL Scientist ...if theres a NEW Virus killing people. They create a Vaccine to stop it.... this is not new people .we have Eradicated Many different illness in the last 100years (POLIO)... but Because this one is attached to a political issue people wanna Cry Freedom? Most of us choose the Freedom of not haveing loved ones and yourself dying for the selfness of a person

 

[Deleted member 194275]

I don't even know if the OP question makes sense at this point.

A famous actor died here in my Country after taking the two shots. The cause was covid, and this is expected in a place that had until now more than covid 21 million cases (on that huge universe, even rare cases do happen a lot). So, for uneducated people (that's majority here mind you) this is a valid source.

So my point is that anti-vaxxers do not need a source when they have examples. An example is an example, and people (specially the uneducated, but not only the uneducated) do not care if this happen 1 out 100 times, or 1 out 10 000 times, they just don't want to take the shots, and they will find arguments for that.

 

[smf]

It's kinda tricky to do that as the cost of developing the vaccine is spread over the sales to all the governments, if it was only going to be born by one single government then it would cost them more money. If the vaccine was open source, why would you sign up to that? Bearing in mind we struggle to get governments to sign up to not killing us all with global warming...

they should be free, with the researchers getting payed by governments or other states that benefit from their work.

but not only the uneducated) do not care if this happen 1 out 100 times, or 1 out 10 000 times, they just don't want to take the shots, and they will find arguments for that.

Right, one child possibly died from receiving a covid injection, while 3 unvaccinated children die a day from covid & apparently it's therefore wrong to vaccinate children.

Actually this isn't the reason. Most, if not all people I know who didn't get the jab for medical issues actually are very pro-vaxx and will say that if you don't have medical obstacles, go for it.

That might be annecdotally true, but only 56.2% of people have been vaccinated in America.

I doubt that the majority of the unvaccinated are pro vax & only haven't had the shot because of medical issues.

Again, if there is no medical obstacles, get the jab. Or if you decide to be an asshole and not get the jab simply because "i don't want to, bill gates 5g yada yada" then don't be surprised people don't want to be near you. ESPECIALLY if you're also anti-mask and anti-distance.

Some of us can't really afford getting Covid despite our young age.

After my medication class today one of the people said they were sending out good vibrations to stop bill gates and anthony fauci to stop their program.

 

[linuxares]

Reason is freedom. Why do we have to put something in our bodies if the government tells us to. I respect your decision if you decide to put 10 doses in your bodies, so I expect you to respect my choice not to. If I die from covid, then that’s on me.

The issue is that you're a factory for diseases while we that take the vaccine stops it.

 

[omgcat]

The only sources would be whatever google has available when you search. There are possibl side effects with any medication. And everyone's body is different. I'd say anti-vaxxers don't want to find out if they are in that extremely slim fraction of people that will get fu**ed up by the vaccine side-effects.

I always found it curious that the same people that worry about the extremely slim chances of suffering from side effects also tout the "extremely slim" chances of dying from covid, but also ignore the large chances of long term covid effects (30+%).

 

[GbaNober]

The issue is that you're a factory for diseases while we that take the vaccine stops it.

vaccinated and unvaccinated carry the same load of virus like delta

 

[linuxares]

vaccinated and unvaccinated carry the same load of virus like delta

Incorrect. You have to get sick to spread it. Vaccinated have a chance to fend it off.