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Oklahoma Republican proposes that any provider who provides gender affirming care to 26 year olds or younger is a felony

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I don't agree with this.

As is your right, and I completely respect that.

People have their own subjective feelings, but they are not rationally entitled to believe their own personal set of facts about reality (or subjective "truth"), especially if falsified by the preponderance of evidence.

While this is true, and I agree to some extent, especially when it involves civil matters / issues- but there's no real changing the fact that people are going to hold on to their beliefs no matter how right or wrong they are. Even if convinced by logic down the road, they'll still have held on to them before engaging with the person who convinces them otherwise. There is no changing this. Even if the belief is brought on, and perpetuated by false claims, evidence, or so on; people will hold onto them regardless, and it'd be in vain to try to change this for everyone. It simply wouldn't work, and as I've stated before, we're stubborn creatures who usually become stuck in our ways of thinking. For better or worse. People have a right to hold their own beliefs, they also have a right to defend their beliefs, and if their beliefs are wrong, they may just be so caught up in it to realize. While I get it may be annoying to have to deal with others that may not know or understand the topic on the same scope, it's not like we can invalidate their beliefs and / or feelings. Even if misguided, or wrong, they're still real to the individual, and they'll defend it as such. Even if I or anyone else disagrees with it. Yes, it can be annoying, and frustrating, but I've accepting at this point that you can't expect everyone to have a rational way of thinking and set of beliefs, there's no way to change this except by trying to offer a deeper understanding of the prospect in a manner that's respectable, well-informed, and civil, even if they disregard it then at least you tried. Which is more than a lot of people can say.

What I'm advocating is civil, rational, discourse, where people agree to abide by the rules of logic and to be moved by the weight of the evidence. An implication of this is that anyone involved in such discourse must willingly give up any false beliefs they have brought forth once evidence shows them to in error (this is a crucial aspect of rationality).

I wish this was possible, I really do. But this would mean a near flawless system carried by people who are willing to look past, or set aside their beliefs entirely, and sadly, most people don't have the will nor the patience to do so. I will always advocate for a system like this, and I will always try to discuss things logically, and in a civil manner, but it would be hopelessly optimistic to expect the same from everyone else. I wish that weren't the case, but it is. So I do agree with you, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

However, sadly, as seen in this thread, some participants will refuse such stipulations regarding the requirements of logic and evidence and continue to repeat false claims over and over, in spite of evidence to the contrary, seemingly based on a feeling of entitlement to their own version of reality/truth, and it is readily apparent that discussions can never make meaningful progress when engaging with interlocutors employing that strategy.

Which I see your point here. Sometimes one's overattachment to their own beliefs leads to a heavy bias that they are unable to see past. But even so, you can't change someone's nature to abide by their own beliefs. If someone is raised religious, and that belief is sustained into adult-hood, that means they were taught to look at the world a specific way, and that's all they've ever known. But in opposition, someone who wasn't raised religious may view everything about the world on an astronomically different scale. Both of these people were raised differently, have different beliefs, and may disagree with eachother, and we cannot change that if they initially do. This is one of the reasons that I accept people's entitlement to their own beliefs. Situations vary wildly from person to person, and experiences in life often shape the person they become. So even if their beliefs may seem wrong to another person, even if they are objectively wrong, they can't see past that. So of course they're going to feel entitled, and if we approach the situation in such a way that tells them they are not, it breeds nothing but resentment. This goes for everyone, no matter their beliefs, or situation.

But overall I agree with you, but I think I just see it in a slightly different way. I wish we could all lay down our pre-conceived notions and biases and discuss with rational civility. I really do. But I don't think it'll ever happen large-scale, especially with controversial topics. All we can hope for is to convince enough people so that we may be allowed to gain what we feel is needed.
 
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The Catboy

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Fun Fact: 55% of trans women who have bottom surgery are in so much pain they need medical care years later, and up to a third struggle to use the toilet or have sex :)
Source?
 

smf

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But even so, you can't change someone's nature to abide by their own beliefs.
Adapting to changing circumstances is necessary to survival, so what is the point of those people?

If you're useless once indoctrinated, then how do we 1. stop people being indoctrinated or 2. remove them from any kind of decision making process once they are.
 

Doran754

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the honest truth is that debating these nerds is self-harm and their ideas are less than worthless
So don't do it, why are you even in this thread. It's already been pointed out you can block it from your feed, why are you even engaging. Some people like this section, why are you trying to censor something for everyone just because YOU dont like it. It's always the same playbook, stifle speech and opinons and shoutdown those you can't.

The Catboy said:
The rate at which people detransition is extremely small and shouldn't reflect on the greater trans population.

You know what else is extremely small? The rate at which people transition compared to the wider general public.
 
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Adapting to changing circumstances is necessary to survival, so what is the point of those people?

But with humans, personal change is also a choice - one sadly that a large amount people refuse to accept. You can't force someone to change their beliefs, because bias more often than not blocks people from seeing past their own views. You can try and convince or sway people to another view, but the fact of the matter is that it's simply impossible to force it.

If you're useless once indoctrinated, then how do we 1. stop people being indoctrinated or 2. remove them from any kind of decision making process once they are.

The only thing we can really do is try to output as much reliable information and evidence as possible. If people refuse to acknowledge it, then that's on them. You can't make someone believe something that they have no interest in believing in. In a perfect world, we'd be able to provide flawless information and have everyone see past bias and accept evidence as fact. But we don't live in a perfect world, and I don't think that that'll ever change.
 

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So you made it the fuck up then. Noted
Simply pasting what I said in google and clicking the first result gives you what you're whining for. Come on, at least put in some effort. You don't expect everything in life to just be given to you, do you? Or do you need someone to open a new tab for you too?
 

The Catboy

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Simply pasting what I said in google and clicking the first result gives you what you're whining for. Come on, at least put in some effort. You don't expect everything in life to just be given to you, do you? Or do you need someone to open a new tab for you too?
If you can’t provide a link, then I am only to assume that you either made it up or are insecure about your claims. Either way, it doesn’t take this much effort for you to post a link. It literally doesn’t bother me to call your claims shit based your lack of a source.
 

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If you can’t provide a link, then I am only to assume that you either made it up or are insecure about your claims. Either way, it doesn’t take this much effort for you to post a link. It literally doesn’t bother me to call your claims shit based your lack of a source.
So the answer is yes. Ok fine, Nancy. This is for all the kids in the back. Read up, buttercup.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...r-extreme-pain-sexual-issues-years-later.html

Do you need help clicking it? :)

If you can stomach the salt, here's the video version
 
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The Catboy

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So the answer is yes. Ok fine, Nancy. This is for all the kids in the back. Read up, buttercup.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...r-extreme-pain-sexual-issues-years-later.html

Do you need help clicking it? :)
Thanks, this is what I was asked for. Why does it have to be this hard every time?
The study is complete shit. 80 people is far too small a sample size to make such widely sweeping claims. Equally, the study concludes the need for better aftercare to prevent further health complications. So as per the normal with the daily mail, they took an already dubious study and misrepresented it. Nice try, but complete nonsense. Got any sources beyond just one study that actually proves the need for better aftercare?
 

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Thanks, this is what I was asked for. Why does it have to be this hard every time?
The study is complete shit. 80 people is far too small a sample size to make such widely sweeping claims. Equally, the study concludes the need for better aftercare to prevent further health complications. So as per the normal with daily mail, they took an already dubious study and misrepresented it. Nice try, but complete nonsense. Got any sources beyond just one study that actually proves the need for better aftercare?
That was 1 clinic. Of course it doesn't matter how much information is presented to your indoctrinated little smooth brain, does it?
 

sombrerosonic

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Thanks, this is what I was asked for. Why does it have to be this hard every time?
The study is complete shit. 80 people is far too small a sample size to make such widely sweeping claims. Equally, the study concludes the need for better aftercare to prevent further health complications. So as per the normal with daily mail, they took an already dubious study and misrepresented it. Nice try, but complete nonsense. Got any sources beyond just one study that actually proves the need for better aftercare?
I got bored and ran it through the AllBias, Seems to be more bias to the right than the left
 
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Doran754

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Thanks, this is what I was asked for. Why does it have to be this hard every time?
The study is complete shit. 80 people is far too small a sample size to make such widely sweeping claims. Equally, the study concludes the need for better aftercare to prevent further health complications. So as per the normal with daily mail, they took an already dubious study and misrepresented it. Nice try, but complete nonsense. Got any sources beyond just one study that actually proves the need for better aftercare?

give me source, no not this source, okay this source, tbh this source is complete bs, not big enough, wrong time of day, one of them didn't have breakfast, it rained the morning they did the study, the earth sneezed, one of their pet worms died, new study needed.
 
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