Ben Shapiro on the Israel Attacks

[Xzi]

Intelligence doesn't ignore things, especially if they are a threat.

Intelligent people don't become intelligent by wasting their time listening to talking heads who are paid to keep people ignorant and divided. The threat they pose is that less-intelligent people might take them seriously and act on their statements.

Ignoring good ideas because they come from a person that has bad ideas is also stupid, or ignorant if you honestly don't know that everybody has good and bad ideas and points of view.

If we're talking about normal people and not fake media personalities, sure. That's not the case here.

Some people are interested in ideas, and some people are looking for someone to follow.

And some people are just looking to have their own stupid opinions regurgitated back at them. That's the role Benny boy fills. There are a million other resources on the web where you're guaranteed to find thought-provoking and good ideas, very few of them involve partisan politics.

 

[64bitmodels]

from what I've seen, it's actually mostly the right that are supporting Israel, many leftists on the subject are on the side of palestine.

I know that sounds a bit obvious but from what i see in this thread there's some people implying you're bigoted or right wing for supporting palestine.

 

[ChaosEternal]

I think "egregiously" is a bit harsh, the basic skeleton of what happened is there, but yes I've been set straight after more study. I was told years ago that it was the US that put them in that area, so it stuck with me. But it was the UK that put them there more than anyone.

This guy does a very good job of breaking down the whole situation:


One thing that I didn't know was that when the UK left the area in 1948, Israel declared itself to be an independent state and displaced even more Palestinians using their military. This of course infuriated the Arabic nations around them, and they had the six day war in 1967 in order to create a unified Arabic state. Israel trounced everyone and took even more land for themselves after that.

In the end, it still comes down to the same issue: They wanted to be put there because of their religion. The people there were pushed around and now have a giant foot on their neck. What we're seeing now is their desperate final struggle before they are wiped out. It's a horribly sad situation.

Yeah, it's a massive, horrible mess to be sure. It even predates the contents of that video, with terrorist attacks, riots, and pogroms being carried out by both Arabs and Jews in the decades prior to the 1940's. Another nasty detail is that since that war, several of the Arab states have prevented Palestinian refugees from integrating, resulting in their descendants still being refugees nearly 80 years later. I wouldn't say this is their end as a people, however. Ironically, the Jews have proven that it is possible to maintain an identity in the face of immense hardship even for millennia. And in a sense, this conflict was their beginning as a people. Prior to the conflict they didn't view themselves as sharing an identity. (To the best of my knowledge.) That's the great irony of it all. Had the Jews never moved into the area, the Palestinians likely would never have developed an identity as Palestinians.

from what I've seen, it's actually mostly the right that are supporting Israel, many leftists on the subject are on the side of palestine.

I know that sounds a bit obvious but from what i see in this thread there's some people implying you're bigoted or right wing for supporting palestine.

Some on the far right may support them because they (the far-right) hate Jews more than Muslims, but yeah, it tends to be more of a far-left thing.

 

[64bitmodels]

Some on the far right may support them because they (the far-right) hate Jews more than Muslims, but yeah, it tends to be more of a far-left thing.

this is the funny and also terrible part of the situation, both sides fighting each other are marginalized/minority so regardless of who you support you're gonna see right wingers... just, depending on your alignment they'll either be mild or carolina reaper spicy

 

[Xzi]

from what I've seen, it's actually mostly the right that are supporting Israel, many leftists on the subject are on the side of palestine.

I know that sounds a bit obvious but from what i see in this thread there's some people implying you're bigoted or right wing for supporting palestine.

I'm against the slaughter of civilians no matter who's doing it. Hamas and Netanyahu's government are both responsible for war crimes and terrorism. Hamas doesn't care about the lives of Palestinians, and Netanyahu only cares about consolidating his own power. It's a no-win scenario.

 

[Viri]

from what I've seen, it's actually mostly the right that are supporting Israel, many leftists on the subject are on the side of palestine.

I know that sounds a bit obvious but from what i see in this thread there's some people implying you're bigoted or right wing for supporting palestine.

I'm in the mindset that this isn't a black and white situation, and that there are pieces of shit on both sides. Hamas doesn't want peace, doesn't give a flying fuck about Palestinians, and will intimidate any Palestinian that dares go against them. On the Israel side, the Israel gov is using this situation to ethnically cleanse parts of Gaza, innocent or not.

 

[titan_tim]

Yeah, it's a massive, horrible mess to be sure. It even predates the contents of that video, with terrorist attacks, riots, and pogroms being carried out by both Arabs and Jews in the decades prior to the 1940's. Another nasty detail is that since that war, several of the Arab states have prevented Palestinian refugees from integrating, resulting in their descendants still being refugees nearly 80 years later.

I saw an interview with a leader in Israel, and he said that they are fully allowed to be full citizens with voting rights. They just have to denounce their religion and become Jewish. Easy-peazy!

Ironically, the Jews have proven that it is possible to maintain an identity in the face of immense hardship even for millennia. And in a sense, this conflict was their beginning as a people. Prior to the conflict they didn't view themselves as sharing an identity. (To the best of my knowledge.) That's the great irony of it all.

Another morbid irony is that the Jews came out of a genocide in WW2, then turned around and thought 'Hmmm... maybe we could try a version of that ourselves'.

Some on the far right may support them because they (the far-right) hate Jews more than Muslims, but yeah, it tends to be more of a far-left thing.

Unless the people in question are far right evangelicals. Then they support the Jews for their own ends of making their prophecy of Armageddon come true, even if they're trying to make it self-fulfilling.

This was another very interesting video about the settlements in the West bank, which brings up a very hard to swallow truth: If the area was completely under the control of the Israel people, the place would (more than likely) flourish.


Although we'll never know how the area would be today if they were never put there in the first place.

 

[64bitmodels]

I'm against the slaughter of civilians no matter who's doing it. Hamas and Netanyahu's government are both responsible for war crimes and terrorism. Hamas doesn't care about the lives of Palestinians, and Netanyahu only cares about consolidating his own power. It's a no-win scenario.

Hamas is a result of the oppression that Israelis have given to Palestinians over the past like 80 years. (this conflict is older than my dad....) Their actions are indefensible but they have an excuse. The Israelis actions are indefensible but they don't have much excuse

So consider me leaning closer to the Palestinians in this scenario.

 

[vincentx77]

Ben Shapiro is such a waste of a good twink

Nah. Meme or no meme, I'm pretty sure the dude is an otter. I mean, either way, I'd still hate f..... love him once, just for funsies.

 

[ChaosEternal]

I saw an interview with a leader in Israel, and he said that they are fully allowed to be full citizens with voting rights. They just have to denounce their religion and become Jewish. Easy-peazy!

According to the Wikipedia page, foreigners can become an Israeli citizen and receive voting rights without needing to be Jewish. Being Jewish does make the process automatic, however.

This was another very interesting video about the settlements in the West bank, which brings up a very hard to swallow truth: If the area was completely under the control of the Israel people, the place would (more than likely) flourish.

Quite frankly, I agree. I suspect that if the conflict had been resolved decisively in the beginning (in either direction, mind you), then there would have been far less suffering in the long run. Instead, we got what has essentially been a frozen conflict for nearly 80 years.

 

[Hanafuda]

I think "egregiously" is a bit harsh, the basic skeleton of what happened is there, but yes I've been set straight after more study. I was told years ago that it was the US that put them in that area, so it stuck with me. But it was the UK that put them there more than anyone.

This guy does a very good job of breaking down the whole situation:


One thing that I didn't know was that when the UK left the area in 1948, Israel declared itself to be an independent state and displaced even more Palestinians using their military. This of course infuriated the Arabic nations around them, and they had the six day war in 1967 in order to create a unified Arabic state. Israel trounced everyone and took even more land for themselves after that.

In the end, it still comes down to the same issue: They wanted to be put there because of their religion. The people there were pushed around and now have a giant foot on their neck. What we're seeing now is their desperate final struggle before they are wiped out. It's a horribly sad situation.

He kinda glosses over the circumstances in 1948 when Israel was established. He says, "that state was largely recognized by the international community, but not by many Palestinians." Then he jumps to 1967.

He totally overlooks/ignores/avoids that on the day Israel was declared an independent nation, Egypt, Syria, Jordan (then Transjordan), Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan ALL declared war on Israel. Day 1. Their objective - "drive the Jews into the sea." They were unsuccessful in accomplishing this goal, and their war to eliminate Israel ended in stalemate. Once a ceasefire was declared, Jordan laid claim to the West Bank and Egypt grabbed the Gaza Strip. Despite their claims of "Palestinian land," Palestinians did not govern any of the land that is now Israel, ever. It belonged to Ottoman Turks, then Brits, then Jordan and Egypt. It wasn't until 1994 that Palestinians gained any sovereignty, in Gaza, and they elected Hamas as their government.

Of course, Israel was hit with another simultaneous multi-nation war in 1967, this time being attacked by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Lebanon, Pakistan, and of course the Palestinians. And as you probably know, Israel decisively kicked ass. It isn't called the Six Day War for nothing. At the end of hostilities, Israel held the Sinai Peninsula, Gaza, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights. Sinai was returned to Egypt after a few years in a negotiated peace agreement, and Egypt formally recognized Israel. Their enemies still vow the complete elimination of Israel though (see Hamas' founding charter, and Arafat's rejection in 2000 of very favorable conditions negotiated by Clinton, because the entirety of "Palestine" wasn't being "returned" to them). But they also say peace and stability will only return to the region when they are given back the land lost in the 1967 war they started. Sorry, I don't believe that for a second. And it wasn't even theirs then, it was Egypt's and Jordan's.

 

[titan_tim]

He kinda glosses over the circumstances in 1948 when Israel was established. He says, "that state was largely recognized by the international community, but not by many Palestinians." Then he jumps to 1967.

If you want to add any large incidents that happened between 1948 to 1967, then I'm all ears.

He totally overlooks/ignores/avoids that on the day Israel was declared an independent nation, Egypt, Syria, Jordan (then Transjordan), Iraq, Yemen, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, and Sudan ALL declared war on Israel. Day 1.

Honestly, can you blame them? If a whole bunch of immigrants came into the US (Even in an unused area), while being protected by the UN, the US would be peeved. Then once the UN stopped protecting them, the immigrants unilaterally declared themselves to be their own country in the middle of the US. The US military would wipe them out on day 1.

Unfortunately we can't turn back the clock to see if things would have been different if Israel hadn't declared itself it's own state.

 

[Xzi]

But they also say peace and stability will only return to the region when they are given back the land lost in the 1967 war they started. Sorry, I don't believe that for a second. And it wasn't even theirs then, it was Egypt's and Jordan's.

Precisely what lies at the heart of this entire senseless conflict, all parties involved are valuing land over human (civilian) lives and basic human dignity, Israel included. If that land was ever "holy" to begin with, it sure isn't now that oceans of blood have soaked into the soil.

 

[Hanafuda]

If you want to add any large incidents that happened between 1948 to 1967, then I'm all ears.


Honestly, can you blame them? If a whole bunch of immigrants came into the US (Even in an unused area), while being protected by the UN, the US would be peeved. Then once the UN stopped protecting them, the immigrants unilaterally declared themselves to be their own country in the middle of the US. The US military would wipe them out on day 1.

Unfortunately we can't turn back the clock to see if things would have been different if Israel hadn't declared itself it's own state.

But the countries that declared war on Israel at its founding were not "Palestine" which until just the day before had been British territory. Didn't see them waging war on the Brits, just the Jews. They didn't attack Israel because of that land, and they didn't attack on behalf of the "Palestinians." They attacked because they were Jews.

For your analogy to be correct, Israel would have had to have been established within the borders of Jordan, or Egypt, or Saudi Arabia, etc.

 

[titan_tim]

But the countries that declared war on Israel at its founding were not "Palestine" which until just the day before had been British territory. Didn't see them waging war on the Brits, just the Jews. They didn't attack Israel because of that land, and they didn't attack on behalf of the "Palestinians." They attacked because they were Jews.

The five nations were recently declared independent themselves, and fought to create a unified Arab Palestine. Up until the British left, they just expected the Jewish people would live in "Palestine", and didn't expect them to declare themselves a state.

For your analogy to be correct, Israel would have had to have been established within the borders of Jordan, or Egypt, or Saudi Arabia, etc.

To say that is to deny Palestine wasn't a real place at the time. The area was called Palestine since the Ottoman empire. Even when the British were there, it was the British Mandate for Palestine. So it was Palestine. The Arabic people living there had no issues until the first decade of the 20th century when tens of thousands of Jewish people moved into the region. Then it just got worse and worse the more Jewish people immigrated in.

What's interesting is during WW2, the British blocked the immigration of new Jews into the area, which caused Jewish militias to fight both the Arabs AND the British. I can see why they'd want to get out of that cluster-f--.


Please note, I'm NOT an authority on the history of this whole thing. I was previously corrected that it was the British that were a large factor in this whole thing, and not the US. I'm merely parroting off information I've read in the most non-partisan locations I can find and trying to see why we have people so vehemently cheering for one side or the other.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

from what I've seen, it's actually mostly the right that are supporting Israel, many leftists on the subject are on the side of palestine.

I know that sounds a bit obvious but from what i see in this thread there's some people implying you're bigoted or right wing for supporting palestine.

The issue is a bit more nuanced than this. And I am not even taking into account the crazy claims at whomever own that infertile, sun-cursed piece of desert, whether it's Palestine, Israel by ancestral home right or, as I would in fact prefer, ROME. This is a major piss-marking contest.

Most of the right supporting Israel is, in fact, just anti-muslim. Plain and simple.

There is also the fact that Nethanyau, the de facto ruler of Israel for more than 16 years, is a far-right dictator who has egregiously failed in his duty to protect the country because, like all dictators, he is only interested in consolidating his power.
I really don't want to say anything, but Nethanyau (or however it's spelt) and his cabal of power-hungry far right yesmen have apparently propped up Hamas as a conversation counterparty far more than any secular or leftist organisation, apparently even with funding too. I shouldn't be surprised of the far-right being in cahoots with each other, but really, neither side has shame.

And no, I am not making this up.

So most of the left supporting palestine is in fact a reaction to a perceived, and real, Israel far right status. Except of course that the blame is with the government, not israel itself.

Hamas itself ticks several boxes of a terrorist far-right organisation - which it would be uncontroversially if instead of being made of crazy Sunni islamists it actually involved crazy Evangelicals. You can decide whether it's discriminatory or not to paint non-christianity/judaism religions as left-wing just because. However, the false comparison works enough for most simple-minded people because in the west, as I said, most rightwingers simply despite muslims and they have lumped them together with their political opposition. so there is that.

 

[Hassal]

Its an occupant land forcefully taken away from its owners. Put yourself into their own shoes and imagine an outsider telling you to leave your home you lived in the past 300 years just because his grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand parents use to live there. See how that bodes with you.

America is also an occupant land stolen by Europeans. How about you return that land to their rightful owners (Native Americans you wiped out). Its easy to play the victim when you're the villain.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

Put yourself into their own shoes and imagine an outsider telling you to leave your home you lived in the past 300 years just because his grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand grand parents use to live there. See how that bodes with you.

This happens in the UK daily, because aristocracy and leasehold are still a thing. Technically all subjects are borrowing from the Crown.

 

[tabzer]

Intelligent people don't become intelligent by wasting their time listening to talking heads who are paid to keep people ignorant and divided. The threat they pose is that less-intelligent people might take them seriously and act on their statements.

Apply this logic to politicians. "Talking heads" is just another layer of marketing. People gain popularity and followings because they do things and say things that resonate with real values that people hold. Idolizing them is the mistake, whether that's by "putting them into office" or just checking out when you hear something you don't agree with or understand.

If we're talking about normal people and not fake media personalities, sure. That's not the case here.

Honestly, you are just some random forum poster, in which it would make even less sense to pay any attention to based on the logic you are presenting.

And some people are just looking to have their own stupid opinions regurgitated back at them. That's the role Benny boy fills. There are a million other resources on the web where you're guaranteed to find thought-provoking and good ideas, very few of them involve partisan politics.

You can agree with Benny on some points while also recognizing that he's heavily into propagandizing political conflicts.

 

[Xzi]

Idolizing them is the mistake, whether that's by "putting them into office" or just checking out when you hear something you don't agree with or understand.

Voting for a candidate does not require idolizing that candidate. If anything it's the opposite, and voters have a responsibility to not treat elections like they're popularity contests.

Everybody tunes out static/worthless noise. The vast majority of people on Earth have never even heard the name Ben Shapiro, and boy do I envy them.

Honestly, you are just some random forum poster, in which it would make even less sense to pay any attention to based on the logic you are presenting.

If you prefer to stick to your echo chambers, go for it. The difference is that you at least know my opinions are my own, and not written for me by corporate sponsors.