Do you find Communistic symbols offensive?

[SG854]

I would certainly LOVE to see white collars go to jail with the same consistency as murderers, but the difference is that desperate people tend to commit murder, and as such are usually desperate in part due to being poor. Companies conspiring to make money isn't actually illegal unless they traipse into the muddy waters of fraud, environmental abuse, unethical workplace practices, etc. Creating a monopoly is technically illegal, and several actions of corporations have questionable legality, but like I was saying in my last post, this is why they lobby politicians to change or issue exceptions to laws. The government COULD do much more to prevent monopolies, they just don't have a motivation to since profit isn't gained from service to the public so much as service to the millionaire-class.

Your statement about the free market is quite accurate, however, and shows one of the big faults of unregulated capitalism. Thankfully, you're in a thread about Communism, a demonized alternative with a different view about how governments should handle the means of production~ At the end of the day, governments are made up of public servants, ideally placed there democratically to represent the will of their supporters. Giving the means of production up to the government means that, all things working as intended, the shareholders are the populous at large. Everyone prospers when the government prospers, anyone can serve the government when they want to see a change, and government staff don't have to answer to corporations because they wouldn't exist. Corporations are largely parasites that stifle innovation and prosperity, since rapid change can be costly and worker prosperity takes away from profit, and removing them as middle men just makes good sense. Anybody can work for the government as a public servant and push for change (or even just vote), but it is much more difficult to be a board member at a company.

I was saying illegal in the context of the comment I made where conspiring to price fix which is definitely illegal and crt makers lost the lawsuit because of it.


Capitalism has it's flaws but I am not fully on board with central planning. The problem is that you need to allocate finite resources to where they are needed most.

You just only have a few people in gov planning the economy and you can have all the economics degrees you want but those few people can't keep up with the ever changing supply & demand on a weekly basis for thousands and thousands of stores at thousands of locations. Thats too much to handle.

 

[KingVamp]

In the real world, we have the poor and homeless while the rich gets richer. This notion of you can just get a better job or pull a better business out of your hat is just not a thing for a great amount of people. Not to mention the pollution. That's with how things are now. Can't image how things would be with none or in practice no regulation or safe guards at all.

 

[subcon959]

Some of the posts in this thread made me think about the KGB defector Yuri Besmenov's warning to America 29 years ago.

 

[Glyptofane]

I get more offended when some Commies act like Stalin did nothing wrong. He was a mass murdering psychopathy.

My peeve is when someone gets called a Nazi for tyrannical behavior or such when Bolshevik/Communist is way more apt.

 

[Deleted member 569431]

Acknowledging what the followers of one system did on ideological grounds in no way diminishes or denies the atrocities committed by the followers of another regime, that’s completely illogical. If anything, you’re the one guilty of denialism - denialism of all the crimes against humanity associated with communism. I used to live about an hour or two away from a concentration camp, I won’t be taking lessons on decorum from someone who doesn’t. To most westerners these are just things that happened in the past and they’ve read about them in a book - my family lived through them, and the evidence of those events are still standing. With some care they will be standing forever, so that we all remember them. I can look at two awful regimes and state that they’re both awful without any issues, if you can’t hold both of those ideas in your head simultaneously then that’s a “you” problem. We could sit here all day talking about all the instances of systemic extermination of people at the behest of communist regimes, on a variety of grounds, from ethnic to political - Katyn massacre, The Killing Fields, Holodomor, the list never ends. Hey, did you know that during the Cambodian genocide the Khmer Rouge used to swing babies against a tree to smash their heads in? They called it “the killing tree”, apparently that was the most cost-efficient way of killing them.

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There’s almost 20,000 mass graves in Cambodia alone, containing the remains of over a million people who were systemically exterminated. Don’t tell me what I can or cannot say about that.

Oh please, one of the slogans is “eat the rich”, and communists take that very literally. It’s just jealousy and envy - the have-nots taking out their anger and frustration against those who do have some wealth, regardless of whether it’s earned or not. Pretending that it’s the victim’s fault because they didn’t willingly give away their belongings to the first bully knocking on their door is asinine - “collectivisation” is just another way of saying “robbery”. It’s even better when you send that formerly “rich” person off to the gulag - no similarities there.

This isnt about decorum and you can say what you want, I never once said you couldnt. I AM pointing out the implications of what you have said and you dont know it but Im doing you a very very big favor by coming on and doing that. Ive given you the information and its up to yourself how to deal with that. The line youre taking is very very problematic and youre going down a very slippery slope into Holocaust distortion. Im sorry for the troubles your family has been through been through, and suffering is suffering, theres no hierarchy in it and that isnt what Ive been saying just to be clear that one persons suffering is over another. It doesnt change the historical record though. The Holocaust was unprecedented above all other acts of genocide and when you promote a false equivalence, its a form of denial as to its nature. How you go forward is up to you. All the best.

PS If its Auschwitz-Birkenau youre living beside, ask one of the guides or the staff in the Memorial itself. Ask them if what I said was correct.

 

[Xalusc]

No.
And anyone who does is, quite frankly, an idiot.

 

[linuxares]

No.
And anyone who does is, quite frankly, an idiot.

I don't think people from example the Baltics would agree with you. I know some that got tortured and got family taken away and never seen again.

EDIT: Or being a Minority in China for example

 

[Xzi]

EDIT: Or being a Minority in China for example

China's income and wealth inequality are second worst in the world, behind only the US. And it's not hard to imagine where they got the idea to use prisoners for slave labor, either. It's actions, not words, that define the reality of their economic system. China is a capitalist oligarchy.

 

[Foxi4]

This isnt about decorum and you can say what you want, I never once said you couldnt. I AM pointing out the implications of what you have said and you dont know it but Im doing you a very very big favor by coming on and doing that. Ive given you the information and its up to yourself how to deal with that. The line youre taking is very very problematic and youre going down a very slippery slope into Holocaust distortion. Im sorry for the troubles your family has been through been through, and suffering is suffering, theres no hierarchy in it and that isnt what Ive been saying just to be clear that one persons suffering is over another. It doesnt change the historical record though. The Holocaust was unprecedented above all other acts of genocide and when you promote a false equivalence, its a form of denial as to its nature. How you go forward is up to you. All the best.

PS If its Auschwitz-Birkenau youre living beside, ask one of the guides or the staff in the Memorial itself. Ask them if what I said was correct.

I don’t have to ask anyone about anything - I’ve been there, former member. Have you? I won’t be preached to on what the word “denial” is, nobody’s denying the atrocities of the Holocaust. I would’ve told you to clutch your pearls a little harder next time, but it seems that you already have and left the venue. For the record, it wasn’t only Jews that were gassed in those chambers and burned in those ovens - the Nazis weren’t very fond of gypsies, or Poles for that matter, or other Slavs. It’s not just a Jewish tragedy, it’s the world’s tragedy. I love when people from abroad tell me about the Holocaust when I could see its remnants by taking a leisurely stroll towards Kraków any time I want. The absolute gall some of you have, completely off the chart.

 

[Xzi]

For the record, it wasn’t only Jews that were gassed in those chambers and burned in those ovens - the Nazis weren’t very fond of gypsies, or Poles for that matter, or other Slavs. It’s not just a Jewish tragedy, it’s the world’s tragedy.

Don't forget actual German socialists, they were some of the first executed during Hitler's rise to power.

 

[MikaDubbz]

No, simply because the literal concept of Communism isn't the problem with the subject, but rather what happens far more often than not with it in practice. On paper, Communism is actually a decent concept, in practice it tends to either get bastardized or corrupt to the point where when scrutinized, it isn't really Communism anymore, and it tends to be in that space where Communism has made itself a bad name. As such, no, I don't find the imagery for what Communism is meant to represent to be offensive, but I do think it's insincere for most nations that claim to truly embrace Communism to use such imagery as if they're all-in on the concept when they really aren't.

 

[Viri]

No.
And anyone who does is, quite frankly, an idiot.

I'm sure the people in Eastern Europe who got Communism forced onto them would disagree.

 

[Foxi4]

Don't forget actual German socialists, they were some of the first executed during Hitler's rise to power.

That’s precisely why they were executed in a slightly more dignified manner - the camps didn’t get established until much later. With that said, point taken. On the bright side, they *were* socialists, so...

 

[Deleted member 546149]

I don't because well eh
it's just a sign of upcoming evolution

 

[Xzi]

That’s precisely why they were executed in a slightly more dignified manner - the camps didn’t get established until much later. With that said, point taken. On the bright side, they *were* socialists, so...

Hitler successfully removing the final roadblock to a fascist takeover and eventual attempted genocide is something you consider "on the bright side?" In a better timeline, the socialists killed him first and there was no Holocaust.

 

[Foxi4]

No, simply because the literal concept of Communism isn't the problem with the subject, but rather what happens far more often than not with it in practice. On paper, Communism is actually a decent concept, in practice it tends to either get bastardized or corrupt to the point where when scrutinized, it isn't really Communism anymore, and it tends to be in that space where Communism has made itself a bad name. As such, no, I don't find the imagery for what Communism is meant to represent to be offensive, but I do think it's insincere for most nations that claim to truly embrace Communism to use such imagery as if they're all-in on the concept when they really aren't.

I never understood that - how is it “decent”? It’s amoral by definition. The communist idea of progress can be boiled down to three phases necessary for the achievement of utopia - first being revolution and total destruction of the current system, second being state totalitarianism to enforce collectivisation and exert total control over personal choice, including education, career and even marriage and finally the third phase, “utopia”, achieved when all dissent is crushed - abolition of private property, introduction of centralised banking, government-controlled education, labour, transportation, agriculture and industry, property rights confiscation, elimination of inheritance, regional planning and heavy income tax. In fact, forget about control over marriage - Marx, as well as Engels, believed that families should be abolished altogether since marriage “exploits women” or some such nonsense. The three-stage model was later replaced with a permanent revolution, commonly associated with Trotsky, and constant class warfare, or a two-stage model, depending on which red you ask. Excuse me for being brazen, but that sounds like an absolute fucking nightmare, and a literal prison. The whole ideology is riddled with contrasts - it focuses on democratising everything, but it doesn’t tolerate dissent and doesn’t ask for consent, so how democratic is it, really? If three guys enter your home and have a vote with you at the point of a gun regarding whether or not they should take all of your stuff, I have a feeling that you’re going to democratically lose that vote 3-1, but it’s still a burglary. The whole thing is romanticised and silly, especially by those who haven’t actually seen it or lived it. Modern socialists keep saying that it’s a great idea executed poorly, but that’s not true - it’s a horrific idea executed precisely as intended. The rubber meets the road the moment you meet the first person who *doesn’t* agree with this path of “progress”, what are you going to do about that? You’ll use force, obviously - that’s the only possible outcome. You’ll do it once, twice, ten times and before you know it, it becomes the norm, not the exception. Thanks, but no thanks.

Hitler successfully removing the final roadblock to a fascist takeover and eventual attempted genocide is something you consider "on the bright side?" In a better timeline, the socialists killed him first and there was no Holocaust.

Removing is the correct term. I was worried that you were going to use the word “murder”, which wouldn’t apply since he killed communists, not people.

 

[MikaDubbz]

I never understood that - how is it “decent”? It’s amoral by definition. The communist idea of progress can be boiled down to three phases necessary for the achievement of utopia - first being revolution and total destruction of the current system, second being state totalitarianism to enforce collectivisation and exert total control over personal choice, including education, career and even marriage and finally the third phase, “utopia”, achieved when all dissent is crushed - abolition of private property, central banking, government-controlled education, labour, transportation, agriculture, industry, property rights confiscation, elimination of inheritance, regional planning and heavy income tax. In fact, forget about control over marriage - Marx, as well as Engels, believed that families should be abolished altogether since marriage “exploits women” or some such nonsense. The three-stage model was later replaced with a permanent revolution, commonly associated with Trotsky, and constant class warfare, or a two-stage model, depending on which red you ask. Excuse me for being brazen, but that sounds like an absolute fucking nightmare, and a literal prison. The whole ideology is riddled with contrasts - it focuses on democratising everything, but it doesn’t tolerate dissent and doesn’t ask for consent, so how democratic is it, really? If three guys enter your home and have a vote with you at the point of a gun regarding whether or not they should take all of your stuff, I have a feeling that you’re going to democratically lose that vote 3-1, but it’s still a burglary. The whole thing is romanticised and silly, especially those who haven’t seen it. Modern socialists keep saying that it’s a great idea executed poorly, but that’s not true - it’s a horrific idea executed precisely as intended. The rubber meets the road the moment you meet the first person who *doesn’t* agree with this path of “progress”, what are you going to do about that? You’ll use force, obviously - that’s the only possible outcome. You’ll do it once, twice, ten times and before you know it, it becomes the norm, not the exception. Thanks, but no thanks.

Ideally it's a great principle, everybody is equal. In practice, that's never how any Communist nation has ever operated.

 

[Foxi4]

Ideally it's a great principle, everybody is equal. In practice, that's never how any Communist nation has ever operated.

Some comrades are more equal than others, as it turns out. Thankfully they’re also equal in squalor, so all is well.

 

[MikaDubbz]

Some comerades are more equal than others, as it turns out. Thankfully they’re also equal in squalor, so all is well.

Exactly, hence why I say, on paper it's a great concept and one I don't disagree with. But I've yet to see it in practice executed in such a way. So I don't find the imagery for what it is supposed to represent to be offensive, I find those that took it, bastardized it, and then claimed that's what Communism is in practice to be the offensive ones.

 

[Foxi4]

Exactly, hence why I say, on paper it's a great concept and one I don't disagree with. But I've yet to see it in practice executed in such a way. So I don't find the imagery for what it is supposed to represent to be offensive, I find those that took it, bastardized it, and then claimed that's what Communism is in practice to be the offensive ones.

It’s an awful concept, both on paper and in practice. I disagree with your assessment, but I can respect difference of opinion.