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Do you find Communistic symbols offensive?

Xzi

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Oh please, one of the slogans is “eat the rich”, and communists take that very literally. It’s just jealousy and envy - the have-nots taking out their anger and frustration against those who do have some wealth, regardless of whether it’s earned or not.
The issue is that nobody "earns" thousands of dollars a minute. Blatant immorality and exploitation of the working class is the only means by which to get so insanely rich in a capitalist economy, making it an inherently flawed system. Practically the polar opposite of a meritocracy.

Pretending that it’s the victim’s fault because they didn’t willingly give away their belongings to the first bully knocking on their door is asinine - “collectivisation” is just another way of saying “robbery”.
Taxation without representation is robbery, and in that sense only the middle/lower classes are actually being robbed. The rich get an overabundance of representation in government, even when they manage to circumvent paying any of their taxes.
 
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Foxi4

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The issue is that nobody "earns" thousands of dollars a minute. Blatant immorality and exploitation of the working class is the only means by which to get so insanely rich in a capitalist economy, making it an inherently flawed system. Practically the polar opposite of a meritocracy.


Taxation without representation is robbery, and in that sense only the middle/lower classes are actually being robbed. The rich get an overabundance of representation in government, even when they manage to circumvent paying any of their taxes.
Correction - you don’t. Not that it matters - when things got really bad, people started dying over owning one too many cows. When you need a boogeyman, the level of what’s considered “rich” greatly diminishes.
 

Xzi

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Correction - you don’t. Not that it matters - when things got really bad, people started dying over owning one too many cows. When you need a boogeyman, the level of what’s considered “rich” greatly diminishes.
In other words, when the wealth and income gaps become too large and the "haves" are too few and far between, the "have nots" start turning on each other. Not exactly a shocking revelation. It's also a peek into the future of America when natural disasters fueled by climate change start causing mass migration and extreme resource shortages. Capitalism forsakes long-term stability for short-term gain (which primarily goes to a few oligarchs).
 
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Foxi4

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In other words, when the wealth and income gaps become too large and the "haves" are too few and far between, the "have nots" start turning on each other. Not exactly a shocking revelation. It's also a peek into the future of America when natural disasters fueled by climate change start causing mass migration and extreme resource shortages. Capitalism forsakes long-term stability for short-term gain (which primarily goes to a few oligarchs).
Today I learned: communist countries are “paragons of long-term stability”. :lol:

You guys really are a riot. Thankfully a harmless one, no danger of modern communists “taking over” anything.
 

Xzi

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Today I learned: communist countries are “paragons of long-term stability”. :lol:

You guys really are a riot. Thankfully a harmless one, no danger of modern communists “taking over” anything.
A country run by its working class would undoubtedly make fewer bad decisions where long-term stability is concerned. Instead this country is speeding toward a cliff at the behest of a few rich and powerful dumbasses, much the same way Stalin and Hitler caused the collapse of their respective nations. Oligarchy and authoritarianism are a constant threat to all peoples of the world, and unchecked capitalism is especially inviting to those concepts.
 
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deinonychus71

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Communist ideology isn't about getting rid of people that aren't like you because you feel superior. It's just putting everything in common. It doesn't mean it succeeded, but If you want a fair comparison compare it to capitalism, or a more extreme form of socialism.

Nazism is something else altogether, it's driven by hatred toward a category of people.
 

Foxi4

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A country run by its working class would undoubtedly make fewer bad decisions where long-term stability is concerned. Instead this country is speeding toward a cliff at the behest of a few rich and powerful dumbasses, much the same way Stalin and Hitler caused the collapse of their respective nations. Oligarchy and authoritarianism are a constant threat to all peoples of the world, and unchecked capitalism is especially inviting to those concepts.
Airplanes work better when all the passengers are holding the stick, as opposed to two qualified pilots.
Communist ideology isn't about getting rid of people that aren't like you because you feel superior. It's just putting everything in common. It doesn't mean it succeeded, but If you want a fair comparison compare it to capitalism, or a more extreme form of socialism.

Nazism is something else altogether, it's driven by hatred toward a category of people.
That’s the stated goal, not the actual result. The actual result is known. Past attempts only failed in the sense that it became unsustainable - the actual cogs turned precisely as expected.
 

Xzi

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Airplanes work better when all the passengers are holding the stick, as opposed to two qualified pilots.
We've already established that capitalism is not the same as a meritocracy, so there's no guarantee those pilots are anything more than the town drunkards. Your argument could also be interpreted as being in favor of dictatorship.
 
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Foxi4

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We've already established that capitalism is not the same as a meritocracy, so there's no guarantee those pilots are anything more than the town drunkards. Your argument could also be interpreted as being in favor of dictatorship.
We haven’t established that - you just said that and supported it with nothing. Inb4 inheritance is theft. Not really a worthwhile argument to have considering I wouldn’t put a communist or socialist in charge of anything unless I intended for it to collapse, I would sooner choose a monkey, and I have mathematical evidence to prove that this is in fact the better choice. If I sit a monkey in front of two buttons, one that turns on a banana dispenser and one that kills a random person, the monkey will be initially correct 50% of the time and its accuracy will increase over time as it observes a pattern. A socialist on the other hand is always wrong, and in spite of observing a century of patterns, will starve to death in front of the terminal.
 

rantex92

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Like the great Johny hobo once said:

"But I swear to f*ck;
That a brick through a broken Starbucks window means more.
And I swear to f*ck;
That we fight more systems when we're passed out on the floor.
Than the words of Kropotkin ever could.
And all the works of Karl Marx ever f*cking could."
 

Xzi

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We haven’t established that - you just said that and supported it with nothing.
Pick basically any major event in the last twenty years of American history. 9/11? Preventable. The 2008 economic collapse? Preventable. Quagmires in Iraq/Afghanistan? Preventable. Our lack of preparedness for the COVID-19 pandemic? Preventable. We simply had the wrong people with the wrong priorities in charge during all of it.

Not really a worthwhile argument to have considering I wouldn’t put a communist or socialist in charge of anything unless I intended for it to collapse, I would sooner choose a monkey, and I have mathematical evidence to prove that this is in fact the better choice.
Basically: you'd rather let some yuppie who's never worked a day in his life choose his cokehead buddies as pilots instead of allowing them to be chosen by a pilot's union. That's anarcho-capitalism in a nutshell for ya. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

Foxi4

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Pick basically any major event in the last twenty years of American history. 9/11? Preventable. The 2008 economic collapse? Preventable. Quagmires in Iraq/Afghanistan? Preventable. Our lack of preparedness for the COVID-19 pandemic? Preventable. We simply had the wrong people with the wrong priorities in charge during all of it.


Basically: you'd rather let some yuppie who's never worked a day in his life choose his cokehead buddies as pilots instead of allowing them to be chosen by a pilot's union. That's anarcho-capitalism in a nutshell for ya. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
These are just more things you are saying without any supporting evidence. Moreover, none of those things have anything to do with the concept of meritocracy, or even the capitalist economic system.

You’re the passenger in the plane, which is my private property - I sure as shit am going to select who pilots it, you don’t have to board *my* plane. The exchange here is very simple - you give me my money and I ensure that you get from point A to point B in a flying metal tube operated by an expert in the field. This service has a certain operating cost which includes the cost of plane maintenance, crew salaries etc., in addition to my profit margin which I take as remuneration for creating this system and making the entire trip happen. If you don’t like it, start your own company - I’m not holding you back. At no point are you entitled to pilot *my* planes which I own and purchased as an investment into my business. I bear all the liability, you bear sour grapes.
 

Xzi

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These are just more things you are saying without any supporting evidence. Moreover, none of those things have anything to do with the concept of meritocracy, or even the capitalist economic system.
I don't know how to spell it out for you much clearer than that. The leaders in charge of all these failures were given power simply because they were born rich, not because they did anything to earn their positions in government. Worship of wealthy, incompetent individuals is a feature of capitalism rather than a bug.

The exchange here is very simple - you give me my money and I ensure that you get from point A to point B in a flying metal tube operated by an expert in the field.
The only thing capitalism ensures is that my pilot will be overworked and more tired than they should be, possibly under-trained as well. Cutting corners to save a few bucks here and there is the name of the game.

I bear all the liability
Annnd there goes any realism where this analogy is concerned. Nixon faced no consequences for his crimes, nor did GWB or Cheney. Same immunity applies to anybody on top of the corporate ladder, just look at Kotick and the recent scandals at Blizzard for evidence of that. Hell, I recall even Boeing corpos giving themselves raises in the midst of their poorly-engineered planes falling out of the sky one after another. It all circles back to the same point I made before: allowing greed and narcissism to run rampant without criminal penalties is the fastest way to cause a nation's collapse, regardless of its economic system.
 

Foxi4

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I don't know how to spell it out for you much clearer than that. The leaders in charge of all these failures were given power simply because they were born rich, not because they did anything to earn their positions in government. Worship of wealthy, incompetent individuals is a feature of capitalism rather than a bug.


The only thing capitalism ensures is that my pilot will be overworked and more tired than they should be, possibly under-trained as well. Cutting corners to save a few bucks here and there is the name of the game.


Annnd there goes any realism where this analogy is concerned. Nixon faced no consequences for his crimes, nor did GWB or Cheney. Same immunity applies to anybody on top of the corporate ladder, just look at Kotick and the recent scandals at Blizzard for evidence of that. Hell, I recall even Boeing corpos giving themselves raises in the midst of their poorly-engineered planes falling out of the sky one after another. It all circles back to the same point I made before: allowing greed and narcissism to run rampant without criminal penalties is the fastest way to cause a nation's collapse, regardless of its economic system.
Can you support that claim, or are you just making a statement? How do you, Xzi, know that? Do you have evidence of any nepotism taking place in any of the cases listed, yes or no? If yes, you haven’t presented any - I don’t know how to make that clearer for you.

Go do a better job yourself then and run me out of business. You can do that under capitalism, you can’t do that under communism.

The Blizzard case is a hilarious mention considering they’re under active investigation as we speak. Boeing executives can give themselves whatever raises they want - they’re responsible to shareholders, not to you. They’re also not an airline, so I don’t know how that even remotely fits the analogy. I won’t even address the other tripe since you’re talking about “crimes” that are unevidenced and never proven in the court of law. As a side note, your claim that the current path is necessarily one that leads to societal collapse is going to be hard to prove considering the U.S. continues to exist while its communist adversaries either collapsed (USSR), converted in part to a more capitalist setup (China) or are barely holding on to dear life (Cuba, North Korea). It appears that the opposite is true - the more their ideas are propagated (and they’re propagated a lot these days) the less social cohesion we see in day to day life.

I’ve lost all track of what we were even initially talking about - I think we left off at you doing an apology tour for a system that’s responsible for around 100 million deaths across the globe and me pointing out that that’s a little cringe, but I may have hallucinated that since it’s so ridiculous. On the bright side, the conversation has become slightly boring, and perhaps better-suited for the Capitalism vs. Communism thread. This one’s about being offended about symbolism, which I’m not because it’s just a bunch of pictures. If people want to wear t-shirts with mass murderers like Che on them, or display their various emblems, I don’t have a problem with that - it looks pretty stupid, but one can’t account for taste, or more accurately, the lack of good taste.
 

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There is laws in place for illegal conspiracy. Just like laws against killing but you can't 100% prevent either. There is little the gov can do at that front.

But my comment was more for how the Free Market doesn't prevent artificially raised prices and being overcharged. The belief is that the free market will lead to better innovation, better prices and more efficient production of products because of the competition in place companies trying to outperform each other to be the dominant product and to take all the money for themselves.

But what about the times when companies choose not to compete against each other and join together to conspire against consumer. Because the overall benefit of artificial raised prices will benefit them in the long run and a win win for all companies involved.
I would certainly LOVE to see white collars go to jail with the same consistency as murderers, but the difference is that desperate people tend to commit murder, and as such are usually desperate in part due to being poor. Companies conspiring to make money isn't actually illegal unless they traipse into the muddy waters of fraud, environmental abuse, unethical workplace practices, etc. Creating a monopoly is technically illegal, and several actions of corporations have questionable legality, but like I was saying in my last post, this is why they lobby politicians to change or issue exceptions to laws. The government COULD do much more to prevent monopolies, they just don't have a motivation to since profit isn't gained from service to the public so much as service to the millionaire-class.

Your statement about the free market is quite accurate, however, and shows one of the big faults of unregulated capitalism. Thankfully, you're in a thread about Communism, a demonized alternative with a different view about how governments should handle the means of production~ At the end of the day, governments are made up of public servants, ideally placed there democratically to represent the will of their supporters. Giving the means of production up to the government means that, all things working as intended, the shareholders are the populous at large. Everyone prospers when the government prospers, anyone can serve the government when they want to see a change, and government staff don't have to answer to corporations because they wouldn't exist. Corporations are largely parasites that stifle innovation and prosperity, since rapid change can be costly and worker prosperity takes away from profit, and removing them as middle men just makes good sense. Anybody can work for the government as a public servant and push for change (or even just vote), but it is much more difficult to be a board member at a company.

My country and its people have been under this “badly abused economic system” for 42 years, I can equate it to whatever I want. People are just people, they wake up every morning, they eat and they sleep all the same. They do the same things when they’re hurt, or when the state takes away their loved ones, or when they hunger, or when they’re forcibly resettled, or coerced, or spied on by their own neighbours, or when they can’t make ends meet. One thing always leads to another, and the consequences of this particular system of governance, as well as the economic setup, are well-known because they were the same wherever and whenever they were tried. Push anyone hard enough and they’ll all do the same thing - anything it takes to survive, including collaborating with people in charge of a “badly abused economic system”. First there are lofty ideas, then there’s resistance, resistance is met with force, then there’s shortages and finally the inevitable collapse, unless you take the China route and introduce a splash of free market into the bitter concoction. It’s always the same, and it will always be the same, it’s just a question of how quickly it deteriorates into chaos.

Hey hey, its time for a fun game I like to call "Can you spot the USA causing suffering to a communist country via the CIA and economics?!" Seriously, this was during the cold war, and while the USSR was a corrupt group of motherflockers, Poland was literally caught between these two powers. Your own links even pretty clearly sum up how the western countries bled Poland dry financially and encouraged regime change while the east was mercilessly putting it down via similar tactics. I'm not a blind tanky, the USSR was amazingly corrupt and totalitarian, but they were only half of the equation.

I don't think any socialist worth their salt would praise the USSR as the best representation of their values, and a certain global superpower has been hell-bent on making sure that any other communist countries get embargoed to oblivion or worse, driven into coups and assassinations until nobody can see straight and huge bodycounts pile up. It's kind of hard to hear all this nonsense about communist murders when the capital of capitalism has done so much bloodshed on its own, and suffers such terrible afflictions compared to countries with more socialist leanings.

In other words... Foxy is full of beans~ He can keep preaching from atop his high horse, but he obviously refuses to face reality in the fear that it might look harshly back at him.

Go do a better job yourself then and run me out of business. You can do that under capitalism, you can’t do that under communism.

Because anyone can come up with the tens of thousands of dollars to start up competition, the hundreds of thousands of dollars to stay in the game over a long period of setup, hiring, and stabilizing, and weather being adversary to established businesses with hundreds to hundreds of thousands of time your wealth. Sounds absolutely legit.
 
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Foxi4

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Hey hey, its time for a fun game I like to call "Can you spot the USA causing suffering to a communist country via the CIA and economics?!" Seriously, this was during the cold war, and while the USSR was a corrupt group of motherflockers, Poland was literally caught between these two powers. Your own links even pretty clearly sum up how the western countries bled Poland dry financially and encouraged regime change while the east was mercilessly putting it down via similar tactics. I'm not a blind tanky, the USSR was amazingly corrupt and totalitarian, but they were only half of the equation.

I don't think any socialist worth their salt would praise the USSR as the best representation of their values, and a certain global superpower has been hell-bent on making sure that any other communist countries get embargoed to oblivion or worse, driven into coups and assassinations until nobody can see straight and huge bodycounts pile up. It's kind of hard to hear all this nonsense about communist murders when the capital of capitalism has done so much bloodshed on its own, and suffers such terrible afflictions compared to countries with more socialist leanings.

In other words... Foxy is full of beans~ He can keep preaching from atop his high horse, but he obviously refuses to face reality in the fear that it might look harshly back at him.



Because anyone can come up with the tens of thousands of dollars to start up competition, the hundreds of thousands of dollars to stay in the game over a long period of setup, hiring, and stabilizing, and weather being adversary to established businesses with hundreds to hundreds of thousands of time your wealth. Sounds absolutely legit.
Thank god they did - after selling our country off to Stalin and his goons in Yalta at the tail end of the World War that’s the least I’d expect of them. Communist countries are not particularly productive, so simply not trading with them is a sure fire way to put them out of commission. Good riddance, too! Thanks for telling me about my own heritage though, I’m sure your version of events is more accurate than that of my dad who was literally there when it all unfolded.

Anyone can take out a business loan and start small. Costs are exorbitant specifically due to excessive regulation, which you guys love so much. You’re the ones sustaining monopolies by preventing new players from cornering small sections of markets, don’t put this on me.

Besides, my closing statement is already enclosed in the post above, somebody has to reign the discussion back on track, may as well be me.
 

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Thank god they did - after selling our country off to Stalin and his goons in Yalta at the tail end of the World War that’s the least I’d expect of them. Communist countries are not particularly productive, so simply not trading with them is a sure fire way to put them out of commission. Good riddance, too! Thanks for telling me about my own heritage though, I’m sure your version of events is more accurate than that of my dad who was literally there when it all unfolded.

Anyone can take out a business loan and start small. Costs are exorbitant specifically due to excessive regulation, which you guys love so much. You’re the ones sustaining monopolies by preventing new players from cornering small sections of markets, don’t put this on me.

Besides, my closing statement is already enclosed in the post above, somebody has to reign the discussion back on track, may as well be me.
But not everyone can take out a business loan, and even when the market wasn't so tight, an excess of loans drove the economy into a historic tailspin that bankrupted hundreds of thousands of individuals and enriched a precious few at the top. The game plays at milking the middle for the top, until the middle is squeezed so dry there's nothing left.

I won't presume to know what your father has told you, I just know that you keep showing that you've got a myopic view of the world that suits you and doesn't seem open to challenge, and that your obviously long-felt hatred towards a tragedy has blinded you from any sort of meaningful discourse about this topic. It obviously colours your world view to the point where you can't ever seem to find compromise or empathy, and honestly it is quite depressing to watch. You seem like an intelligent individual, but the way certain topics are pettifogged out of control when things don't suit a narrative you like shows a clear break between your ability to view things critically and your need to keep offensively pounding out your cozy position that doesn't require self reflection. It is a sad trap that grabs a lot of folks, but I believe you can find clarity if you look past your irrational hatred of the concept of communism.
 
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