Emulation vs hardware, talk some about your thoughts.

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Emulation has been a viable thing for playing games for decades now, however in the eyes of some it enjoys a "lesser" status than the custom designed hardware things were originally made for, others still go for the opposite and consider the hardware often the inferior way. In the future this might be unarguably rendered moot by computers having programmable hardware that can quite literally recreate the original or approaches that software emulate from the transistors on up.
There are certainly fairly clear cut cases where emulation accuracy falls short and impacts a game, as well as more esoteric concerns. It should also be noted that transistors might not need to be the only things emulated.
To take it to a slightly different concept though we should first talk about vinyl records, here you would often hear many expounding the virtues of the format with phrases like "it is warmer", "it sounds better" and similar such things. Some of this might have a basis in limitations and mastering, though we spare bringing the loudness wars to our fair site, but in the end if any sample of sound can be described by a series of sine waves and thus are maths which can be modified. If computer games are quite literally a set of fixed computer rules, aka straight up maths...

Alternatively some argue that a kind of irrational nostalgia exists wherein the fiddling with gunk on contacts and scents of 30 year old fire retardant chemicals and plasticisers are necessary. It is an effect previously seen in books when computerised versions of those were on the rise, for those now considering the obvious then we hold no claim to that business idea.

Others take a different tack and argue the prevalence of cheats, filters, savestates, turbo buttons, et al, all perks for many when considering emulation, mean you are not playing the same game as the original people. From a game theory perspective this is quite accurate but one then never stops drawing increasingly unhelpful lines -- did playing with the sound off to prevent frustration in my parents which did not appreciate chip tunes, thus not appreciating the sound design or talespin on the NES at all points, mean I played a different game? Ask a video engineer what NTSC stands for and they may quip "never the same colour", and we have all seen what subtle colour changes can do to a design.
On the other hand what does someone's potential lack of self control have to do with your play?
Similarly if one played a later port, different region version with changes or so forth does that count as having played the game? Do the developers/publishers have some kind of vision or claim that gets perverted? What if you played a game steaming drunk one day?


This is part of a series on GBAtemp where we consider game design, aspects of play and game industry concepts. Previously we discussed a favoured game style that might have become less common in recent times. Earlier editions still saw skills one might have learned or honed because of a game, games on the PS4 and Xbone that will stand the test of time, games that got better after launch, cancelled games and shuttered devs, and story canon in games.
This is somewhat less involved than previous topics, though no less controversial at times.
You are invited to post your thoughts on the matter.
 

matpower

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Fine. I should have kept my bloody mouth shut on the whole thing, would that have been better? Sure getting that vibe from you :( I don't like Higan, I don't like its interface, the way it needs to be configured, and it's why I use Super NT with an SD2SNES. But yeah, I'm bailing out of this discussion, I've dug myself deep enough. :sad:
Nah, you're just being overly dramatic there, mate. I have just stated something to contribute to the thread, and I never said FPGA was inferior, I said it was the same. As for Higan, you can use another UI with Higan, I use RetroArch myself since I don't need to convert the games to Higan-compatible formats and integrates well with other cores.
 

the_randomizer

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Nah, you're just being overly dramatic there, mate. I have just stated something to contribute to the thread, and I never said FPGA was inferior, I said it was the same. As for Higan, you can use another UI with Higan, I use RetroArch myself since I don't need to convert the games to Higan-compatible formats and integrates well with other cores.

I can't even tell a difference in Snes9x 1.55 or Higan for the games I use, save for like, two games, to be honest. As such I don't even use Snes9x aside from recording game footage. I simply use my Super NT because it feels more authentic playing it on a TV than on Windows, nothing more.
 
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hardware cost money. not good.
emulation is free. very good.
sometimes emulation cost more than hardware. wii u emulator for example cuz you need storng and manly pc.

if it's home console emulation and the emulation is near perfect then it's good enough cuz you can use the controller from the original console. if its handheld console especially consoles like ds and 3ds then hardware is the only way to get the best Experience.
 
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ReigningSemtex

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I prefer playing on original hardware whenever I can however if a system I own has the ability to play other game systems through emulation I will always make sure that's an option too
 

Qtis

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Depends on the console. Mostly playing old games on a modern TV make them look like a potato, but luckily old crts are still around. Sometimes it is more convenient to use emulation (esp with SNES mini or the likes) or even flashcarts (SD2SNES, EverDrives, etc) than originals, but again, depends on the console
 

RMZK

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Its just a matter of preference and picking the option that best suits your needs

Original Hardware

If you have deep pockets - If you like the retro aesthetic and original hardware, you'll probably invest a lot of money but the results you'll get will be the best of all options. both RGB CRT monitors and good quality analog to digital upscalers are somewhat expensive but are really worth it. I personally prefer this option.

B4XWhwi.jpg


wByQmW9.jpg



If you just wanna play without lag in - just grab a cheap CRT TV if you are lucky enough you can get a tv with S-video and component inputs

bKggymM.jpg



Emulation

Low End/Mid End computer - This is the place where most of the emulation community resides. most modern computers will run all games up to the 6th generation of console with minor hasle.

Emulation on the go - just pick up a hackable PS vita, it is more discrete than a switch and more powerful than a 3DS, a GPD win is also an option

PC Master Race MLG no scope - just go nuts, I really like this option for special situations like when I want to grab some HD footage of a DS/3DS game or play more modern games like Persona 5 on the PS3 emulator with high settings looks better than on a PS4 IMO

s1NzQcN.jpg


In summary have fun playing with the option that best suits you, all options are valid. just remember that if you are gonna emulate common games that are easy to get on retail or ebay, consider buying an original copy of the game. the emulation community has a bad reputation because of pirates. Obviosly there are exceptions where a physical copy is very difficult to get or very expensive, which is the case of many arcade cames.

Yes and no, on original hardware, and using modern TVs, old consoles look like hot garbage. Scaling them with HDMI is the best way to play older games.

Well, if you have the correct equipment for playing on the original hardware on a LCD display, the results are amazing.
 

Taffy

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Hardware is what you want when it is current. eg, you want a Switch not a Switch emulator right now. But if access to said hardware becomes scarce, we turn to emulators.

That said, you want a hardware-accurate emulator. And one that runs at reasonable speed, too.

The SNES for an example. Those are hard to find nowadays. I have one that has no video cable or power supply, but it still works. Probably.


I can't use it, but I CAN use bsnes, snes9x, lsnes, zsnes, and other emulators to play games made for it.


...Speaking of emulation and the snes, did you know that the 65c816 had an emulation mode so it could run code for its predecessor, the 6502?

On startup, it starts in emulation mode. Until you set a certain bit, it stays in this mode and operates like a 6502. Limited instruction set, 8-bit address bus, things like that.
 

the_randomizer

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Its just a matter of preference and picking the option that best suits your needs

Original Hardware

If you have deep pockets - If you like the retro aesthetic and original hardware, you'll probably invest a lot of money but the results you'll get will be the best of all options. both RGB CRT monitors and good quality analog to digital upscalers are somewhat expensive but are really worth it. I personally prefer this option.

B4XWhwi.jpg


wByQmW9.jpg



If you just wanna play without lag in - just grab a cheap CRT TV if you are lucky enough you can get a tv with S-video and component inputs

bKggymM.jpg



Emulation

Low End/Mid End computer - This is the place where most of the emulation community resides. most modern computers will run all games up to the 6th generation of console with minor hasle.

Emulation on the go - just pick up a hackable PS vita, it is more discrete than a switch and more powerful than a 3DS, a GPD win is also an option

PC Master Race MLG no scope - just go nuts, I really like this option for special situations like when I want to grab some HD footage of a DS/3DS game or play more modern games like Persona 5 on the PS3 emulator with high settings looks better than on a PS4 IMO

s1NzQcN.jpg


In summary have fun playing with the option that best suits you, all options are valid. just remember that if you are gonna emulate common games that are easy to get on retail or ebay, consider buying an original copy of the game. the emulation community has a bad reputation because of pirates. Obviosly there are exceptions where a physical copy is very difficult to get or very expensive, which is the case of many arcade cames.



Well, if you have the correct equipment for playing on the original hardware on a LCD display, the results are amazing.

See, therein lies the problem, upscaling original hardware is expensive and cumbersome; console FPGA clones like the Super NT do all that for a heck of a lot cheaper and just as good. I play my Super NT on my 25" gaming monitor and with scanlines, it looks very crisp and clear, and the colors are quite nice too. I shouldn't have to pay some idiot scalper hundreds of dollars for a Framemeister.
 
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I have nothing against playing games on original hardware and those who choose to do so. Heck, I even went to the trouble of buying a Genesis/Mega Drive myself, for collection purposes.

That said, there will always be inherent advantages to emulating the game over playing it on original hardware. Emulators have essentially rendered thousands of games cross-platform, and, thanks to cloud storage services, it's entirely possible to pick up a game on your phone for a few minutes, continue playing it on your Raspberry Pi later on, play a little more on your PC the next day, then transfer it to actual hardware if you have the proper equipment for it. Something about that has always been incredibly cool to me.

Some may argue that save states and cheats may break the pacing and progression of a game. While I must admit that such conveniences do have a tendency to cheapen the experience provided by old games, the player is always given the option to not use them at all.

Plus, speaking as someone who uses Fightcade, an online multiplayer service for old fighting games, fairly regularly, emulators are practically indispensable for someone who wants to train on an arcade-perfect version of a game. Some fighters didn't receive console ports at all, and others had significant differences made to the home releases, such as unique combos or changes in a character's moveset. Being able to use chests to train on the original arcade versions is very important, especially for high-level play.
 

the_randomizer

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Hardware is what you want when it is current. eg, you want a Switch not a Switch emulator right now. But if access to said hardware becomes scarce, we turn to emulators.

That said, you want a hardware-accurate emulator. And one that runs at reasonable speed, too.

The SNES for an example. Those are hard to find nowadays. I have one that has no video cable or power supply, but it still works. Probably.


I can't use it, but I CAN use bsnes, snes9x, lsnes, zsnes, and other emulators to play games made for it.


...Speaking of emulation and the snes, did you know that the 65c816 had an emulation mode so it could run code for its predecessor, the 6502?

On startup, it starts in emulation mode. Until you set a certain bit, it stays in this mode and operates like a 6502. Limited instruction set, 8-bit address bus, things like that.

I wouldn't wish or recommend Zsnes to my worst enemy, but I get what you're saying. Super NT is just as accurate as Higan, but on an FPGA level, and with a flashcart, it becomes the
perfect way to play Snes on modern TVs. No having to pay for overpriced unnecessary upscalers.
 

dubbz82

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Hardware whenever possible. Too many problems with anything remotely modern in terms of emulation. Games that will plainly not load, games that will load but play incorrectly, etc. For older stuff...still hardware whenever possible. I kinda like the feeling of playing old games on an orginal console.
 

RMZK

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See, therein lies the problem, upscaling original hardware is expensive and cumbersome; console FPGA clones like the Super NT do all that for a heck of a lot cheaper and just as good. I play my Super NT on my 25" gaming monitor and with scanlines, it looks very crisp and clear, and the colors are quite nice too. I shouldn't have to pay some idiot scalper hundreds of dollars for a Framemeister.

I agree with you that FPGA based consoles are the future in terms of playability, but there is something about playing on real hardware that cannot be described, and I don't think it's nostalgia, because I never had a Sega Genesis until last month and it feels amazing to play on the original thing.

BTW I would recommend avoiding the XRGB mini framemeister as it is too expensive and for me the fact that it cannot handle dynamic resolution changes (PSX and Sega saturn) is a deal breaker.
 

the_randomizer

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I agree with you that FPGA based consoles are the future in terms of playability, but there is something about playing on real hardware that cannot be described, and I don't think it's nostalgia, because I never had a Sega Genesis until last month and it feels amazing to play on the original thing.

BTW I would recommend avoiding the XRGB mini framemeister as it is too expensive and for me the fact that it cannot handle dynamic resolution changes (PSX and Sega saturn) is a deal breaker.

Super NT, real hardware, most people wouldn't be able to tell the diff on a newer TV.
 

Kurt91

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For me, it all comes down to capturing the same feeling I had as a kid when I played these games. That not only means the emulator has to work well, but whatever I'm using as a controller has to be right as well.

Personally, I love using my 3DS for emulators to play NES, SNES, and GBA. When I was a kid, my two favorite games on the NES were "Batman" and "Ninja Gaiden". I played those games so much, I would need an emulator that could hit full-speed, no noticeable visual issues, and comfortable controls. Yes, I can always use my PC to emulate these games, but I've never been able to find an XBox360 controller with a comfortable D-Pad. The 3DS has a great D-Pad, made by the same company that made the console I originally used for these games, plays the game fine as far as speed and graphics, and the smaller lower-resolution screen means I don't necessarily need to fiddle with video filters.

Now, let's say that I'm playing something that I'm not as familiar with, such as when I played Castlevania 64. I played that on an emulator on my PC. I play a lot of games like Kingdom Hearts, so when I started up the game, I remapped the controls for my 360 controller to something similar to that. I played through the game, and had a lot of fun. However, I owned a Nintendo 64 as a kid, and I can easily imagine how uncomfortable the controls would have been on the original controller. For one thing, I would have had to take my hand off of the Control Stick handle in order to reach the D-Pad and turn the camera, while my emulator setup allowed me to easily spin the camera at will without having to stop moving my character.

Basically, I'll prefer comfort and convenience if it's a game I've never played before, but if it's something I grew up with, it's better if you can hit me in the nostalgia hard. While I'm just fine with an emulator, I'd absolutely love getting to hook up the original console to an old-school television, and play it that way. I get to hold the original controller in my hand, and I have yet to find a video filter that looks the same as an old-school TV for things like Donkey Kong Country. (Also, some graphical effects were designed with those physical TVs in mind, such as the transparency and shimmering on the waterfalls in Sonic the Hedgehog)

The biggest killer for me, though, is if you can't get the music to work right. If everything is working perfectly, but the music sounds like crap, I'm going to be miserable and just stop playing. I'll put up with slowdown and graphical issues much more easily if I can listen to the music the way it's supposed to sound.
 

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For consoles that require batteries (with the exception of the Neo Geo Pocket Color), I'm fine with emulation, because expendable batteries are an awful waste. For everything else (let's specify Playstation 2 and onward), I prefer the original console.

If you've played a game for 5-10 years, and then play it on a PC, you notice every little hiccup. The problem only intensifies if, like me, your PC is about the same age as said consoles. I never get rid of my old systems (why the hell would you?!), so it really comes down to whether those consoles were region-locked and whether you can find the games.
 

raulpica

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Hardware 4 lief.

You just can't replicate the feeling of the original controller (yes, you can buy USB converters, but that's beside the point) along with the super-satisfactory feeling of those clicky buttons of yore. Those little LED lights coming up to life... It's just all part of the experience.

Also, I just feel that emulation is terribly off sometimes. I modded some time ago a Neo Geo MVS for a friend and we were both stunned to how different it was compared to playing the same game on MAME. It just felt smoother, even on an LCD.

Sometimes hardware is expensive, but you just have to look for good deals. Also I seriously hope this stupid "retro collecting" fad will die in a fire soon and us people that ACTUALLY play the shit we buy instead of letting it rot and gather dust can finally go back to paying sane prices for old hardware.
 

FAST6191

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Fine. I should have kept my bloody mouth shut on the whole thing, would that have been better?
Every time a discussion does not seem to be going your way you seem to have a habit of throwing your hands up and trying to run away. Might want to work on that.

Anyway on FPGAs then I suspect I should probably have covered things in more detail than I did and that Byuu article risks misleading people at the same time. I have no reason do doubt Byuu's findings here but matpower's assessment risks giving people the wrong idea.

Weak emulation is weak emulation whether you do it in high level software, low level software, a FPGA*, hand soldered transistors or with 5 million people cranking away at calculations on paper. A FPGA is not a magic bullet in and of itself. By their very nature they do however allow you to recreate things down to the transistor level in hardware which makes them signals wise functionally indistinguishable (or bug for bug compatible should you prefer that phrase) should your emulation/recreation go for that, they might consume more power and have a few other issues that prevent them from being a simple drop in replacement for original hardware but that is a different story.

Do that and you are then left arguing about all those nice features you now lack (so you have a perfect CPU + other hardware model, congrats but you still don't have turbo, savestates, cheats and whatnot that my decades old DOS emulators had) and manufacturer tolerances -- if you ever heard stories of different xboxes running things are different speeds then MS supposedly used RAM chips rated for different speeds to get the cost down. Depending upon what goes you can also turn your FPGA code into a new chip which could well function as a drop in replacement, and if you are recreating things more than a few years old you will find a bunch of fabs willing and able to do it for you.


*for instance nothing stopping you from implementing some random 90s nightly build of ZSNES in all its glory on a FPGA.

Re retro.
More people getting into games, more people looking back, supply going down (at least until clones start popping up, the part about FPGAs being converted into chips should make the repro or not set start sweating)... not going to happen any time soon.

Re: Hardware when it is current -- I dare say Dolphin had surpassed the wii before it died (or at least its online died) and basically throughout the GBA lifetime ( https://gbatemp.net/threads/bbb-release-two-more-switch-master-keys.499492/page-5#post-7891452 ) emulation was very much at the forefront. PS1 stuff also started making some serious headway, though Sony kneecapped that somewhat.
 

bi388

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Depends on the system and game. For super Mario bros 3 or Pokemon emerald, id rather pull out my cart. Even for some ps1 games like sotn or ff7 I'll use my disks and ps1. But for most 3d games, id rather play silent hill 2 or demons souls in 1080p, or breath of the wild in 60 fps compared to the inferior original hardware.
 

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Some of this might have a basis in limitations and mastering, though we spare bringing the loudness wars to our fair site, but in the end if any sample of sound can be described by a series of sine waves and thus are maths which can be modified.
Just leaving a note here, about "emulating" a certain synthesizer ;)
https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea...Valley-quest-to-preserve-Stephen-12759775.php
They also used some code from higan, probably the best off topic of the history :D
 

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I know that original hardware will always be more reliable than emulation, but I don't have the money to buy every console ever made. I love the upgrades that communities have given us to play our favorite games at better frame rates, with better image quality, and how they provide more for the game through ROM hacks, and mods. In fact, I don't even need modded hardware if I want to play with any mods. I can use an emulator instead. If you want the original game in its true glory, hardware is the way to go, but if you want an extension to the experience, emulation will never cease to amaze.
 

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