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How do you feel about abortion?

Hanafuda

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I can understand this, but I feel like more risk goes to the woman. Maybe the couple was planning on raising a kid together, but the guy gets cold feet and wants out. Now the woman is stuck in a crappy situation. If the woman gets cold feet, there no real risk for the guy.

I understand. As things are now (and aren't likely to change - this is just philosophy really) the guy is the one with the risk of 'getting stuck.' This is pregnancy we're talking about, so there are no easy solutions but since we're just talking about it, I'm discussing some thoughts I've had on the subject re: fairness. When it comes right down to it, this is a situation where an ounce of prevention is available and cheaply. Even the 'morning after pill' is a minor inconvenience compared to the potential harm of letting an unwanted pregnancy occur. And as with most any other part of life, poor judgment has consequences.
 
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SG854

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To be clear though, men choose those jobs. Yes they are over represented - but that's because they prefer the higher pay that usually accompanies the more dangerous jobs. Men also tend to go more into STEM, which is a very safe field. Most politicians are men too.

Bottom line - you can't blame women for men's decisions. Just as you can't blame men for women's. We're not the reason women choose lesser paying careers and perpetuate the gender pay gap.
I'm just saying males should also have a say in abortion. And I don't know if being pushed into a higher paying field to support a family is really a choice. There have been many males that say they work dangerous jobs because if they didn't then they wouldn't be able to have a family.
 
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x65943

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I understand. As things are now (and aren't likely to change - this is just philosophy really) the guy is the one with the risk of 'getting stuck.' This is pregnancy we're talking about, so there are no easy solutions but since we're just talking about it, I'm discussing some thoughts I've had on the subject re: fairness. When it comes right down to it, this is a situation where an ounce of prevention is available and cheaply. Even the 'morning after pill' is a minor inconvenience compared to the potential harm of letting an unwanted pregnancy occur. And as with most any other part of life, poor judgment has consequences.
Some crazies even say the morning after pill shouldn't be used.

This is because it paralyzes the cilia in the fallopian tubes - thus inhibiting a potentially fertilized egg in the tube from traveling to the uterus.

This is called an abortifacient method of birth control. So...what are you gonna do about it. Some people are really convinced that an embryo 1 cell big needs to be protected at all costs - despite the fact that the body spontaneously aborts 50% of pregnancies itself.
 

mammastuffing

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I understand what you're arguing at one level, but moles don't grow into a separate human being. That's pretty much the dividing line to me: there's simply not a process that moles, cancer, etc will become intelligent, and so we have to treat an embryo or a fetus like we would a whole human. We don't tend to argue that dolphins that are young enough don't qualify as dolphins, so we can kill them as we please.

I mean, as far as being able to survive and general intelligence, how old does a human tend to have to be to make it alone? At least five or six years? Humans are pretty insanely defenseless as very young children, even in a very benign environment. It seems pretty clear we're conveniently twisting our standards to overcome the moral objects of ending a human's life, yet we don't spend remotely the same effort to kill a more intelligent animal--pick just about any non-primate at one year old.

So, yea, if we as a society recognize we'd rather have abortions than have more unwanted/abused/neglected children, then that's really a pragmatic compromise we're making. If we're argue it's just a matter of instantaneous biology on intelligence or viability of life without support, we need to make some actual standard and apply it across the board. Maybe that means a one year old pig has more right to live than a one year old human. Then again, I don't think humans are any more special than humans make themselves to be, at the behest of defense from other humans most often.
A sperm can potentially grow into a human. Is masturbation mass murder then?
 
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x65943

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I'm just saying males should also have a say in abortion. And I don't know if being pushed into a higher paying field to support a family is really a choice. There have been many males that say they work dangerous jobs because if they didn't then they wouldn't be able to have a family.
Obviously access to education and good jobs are a factor here too.

Of course no one has to have a family either.

I realize there are inequalities in who gets what jobs, but in the end it's a choice - because most jobs are equal opportunity. Women can be high wire repair techs - they just don't choose that job as the risks outweigh the benefits.

Ultimately things are not entirely fair. I agree men should have some sort of choice in abortion, but I think this should have more to do with having a sound relationship and a woman who will take your concerns to heart than a government mandated right.
 
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SG854

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Obviously access to education and good jobs are a factor here too.

Of course no one has to have a family either.

I realize there are inequalities in who gets what jobs, but in the end it's a choice - because most jobs are equal opportunity. Women can be high wire repair techs - they just don't choose that job as the risks outweigh the benefits.

Ultimately things are not entirely fair. I agree men should have some sort of choice in abortion, but I think this should have more to do with having a sound relationship and a woman who will take your concerns to heart than a government mandated right.
At the same time having sex is also a choice. The question is that not all men get into dangerous type jobs. And all women feel birth pains, which have been reduced with the advancement of medical science. The thing is the future is hard to predict so you don't know if certain male that is in desperate need of money will be pushed into a dangerous job. So which males have a say in abortion and which don't? I would assume a male that picks a dangerous job definitely has a say in abortion. But at the same time how do you know if a current male who is not in a dangerous job will or will not go into one in the future?
 
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TotalInsanity4

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Bottom line - you can't blame women for men's decisions. Just as you can't blame men for women's. We're not the reason women choose lesser paying careers and perpetuate the gender pay gap.
I was on board, but you lost me here. While there are definitely situations in which this is the case, the majority of the "pay gap" comes from women not being promoted at the same rate as men even when showing equal or greater qualifications

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisaro...-widening-heres-how-to-close-it/#441a5284236d
 
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deinonychus71

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Abortions RULE! We need them, and they need to be mandatory for people with more than 2 kids on welfare. We're over-populated as fuck, so we should start regulating babies like China does. Besides, kids are annoying fuckbags anyways. They're gross, whiny, needy, they stink, they're dumber than rocks, and expensive as fuck to raise. No thanks... ABORT! ABORT! ABORT!

I believe the quote you're looking for is: "they're noisy, they're messy, they're expensive. They smell, some of them smell, babies smell."
 

Kigiru

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Abortions RULE! We need them, and they need to be mandatory for people with more than 2 kids on welfare. We're over-populated as fuck, so we should start regulating babies like China does. Besides, kids are annoying fuckbags anyways. They're gross, whiny, needy, they stink, they're dumber than rocks, and expensive as fuck to raise. No thanks... ABORT! ABORT! ABORT!

Woah, i mean - I share your opinion about overpopulation and children being a nightmare, but eve i'm not that hardcore and decided to fight against overpopulation in a more humane way and just don't fuck at all.
 

Jayro

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Woah, i mean - I share your opinion about overpopulation and children being a nightmare, but eve i'm not that hardcore and decided to fight against overpopulation in a more humane way and just don't fuck at all.
Well people these days don't even TRY to use condoms or anything but the pull out method, so what else is there to do?
 

Viri

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To be honest, I honestly don't know how to feel about abortions. I'm not a girl, and can never get knocked up. I'm pretty conflicted on the subject. :P
 

linuxares

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It should always be legal and a valid option. Not as a mean to use as "protection". I known some people that was getting pregnant every other month and just made abortions. I so hope they get sterile, the genepool don't need them.

Never the less, when does the embryo start to count as a human? Is it when the brain is developed? Is it when the nerve system is fully built?
I'm not sure, but I have to let scientices decide. Their should still not be any shame if you wanna do an abortion. I'm even so "liberal" that if they child have a sickness/disorder, I would ask the mother to abort it. Else it can be a life long dependency of care for the person. Also it's it fair for the person being born to live with that?
 

AdamFX990

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I feel like I'd rather have been aborted than raised by irresponsible parents. Though I'm defiantly not ok with the idea. In an ideal world, idiots wouldn't have unprotected sex, rape wouldn't happen and all that jazz. I feel like outlawing it would do more harm than good though. :/

EDIT: I'm not saying my parents are irresponsible or I wish I'd never been born. Just in case that wasn't clear!
 
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FAST6191

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Curious that most of the people here with strong opinions are American, granted it is only just becoming daytime in much of Europe as I clicked on this.
It really does seem to be an issue for that country, most other places that are not Republic of Ireland or possibly Poland (or Vatican city but... yeah) have it as a complete non issue and just dealer's choice. That or "if you don't like them then don't have one" suffices.
I would also wonder if it remains as such a talking point in the US not for actual reasons but as a kind of red herring.

Anyway no problem with the general concept -- I can't see a foetus as a life and actually find it quite strange that some people do. The "potential" thing for me makes about as much sense as the fart I just did being an abortion as it presumably changed the location of so nitrogen, oxygen and carbon that could well have become life with enough effort but now shall never meet. No bother whether it is because they can't be arsed to do the whole raising a spawn thing or there is a serious medical issue. "but adoption" is a choice, don't see why it wants to be the only one.
Would also go one further and consider people that choose not to have an abortion to treat their cancer or something as very silly.
Should a country choose to not have abortions then OK I guess, should that also not include it in the case of rape, medical reasons, incest and such I would find that to be abhorrent.

Limits of viability for me... better medics and medical ethicists than I would want to do national laws but baseline for me would be viability without serious medical intervention a decent chance of living a normal life. Yes this does also mean there is an overlap between what is technically possible and what is legally allowable, I am OK with this and were I a medic doing such things I would not have a problem either.

Maladies in the case of the theoretical child, especially as detection capabilities rise, is a fun one. Quality of life is an important thing and I am happy for medics to suggest if for various conditions. Lines can get very blurry here, I recall many years ago in New Scientist there being a discussion about what might happen if a test for autism was made that worked in the womb, it then also being noted that in the more hardcore areas of maths and physics and the like there were considerable numbers of those with quite serious versions of the condition. As far as modifiers for the viability limits I am OK with it increasing it over what might be offered for the can't be arsed (or socio economic reasons if we are using the term taught in high school religious studies).

Could one be legally compelled to do such a thing? For instance could a judge (presumably a trained one, or one with the guidance of an ethics panel) order a serious drug addict to get one? There are various places that can compel a sterilisation under various circumstances and this presumably follows from that.
Going again. I am allowed to leave a "living will/advance directive" to say if I am in a coma then pull the plug with both hands. By similar token would I be allowed to leave one saying if I am in a coma then fire up the womb vacuum and then have it overridden by say my parents with power over medical decisions and the means to take care of the thing?

Including it as an option in national/state healthcare if such a thing exists, or otherwise having governments pay for it. Both from a philosophical/ethical and pragmatic (abortions will happen, you really don't want coathanger ones) absolutely fine with that, including for said socio economic reasons. This would also include making health insurance give it for free, including said socio-economic, just like they do various vaccinations.
I would also go so far as to say banning it under my reading of US law would take a constitutional amendment level of change. I view this as a good thing. By similar token I view the hamstringing of abortion clinics (moving the goalposts, death by a thousand red tape cuts sort of thing) in various parts of the US as fucking disgusting. If we are back to funding things then those "pregnancy wellness centres" that twist words, medical facts and the like I find the governmental funding of to be quite disturbing.

As far as "the say of the man" then absolutely have baseline laws say it is all the woman's choice*, only possible modifiers being surrogacy (which I will need to further consider) and incapability which is fairly standard in the field of medical ethics. That said the law is the bare minimum here and not involving the man is likely enough to be a dick move. There have been discussions of a "financial abortion" wherein all parties agree to absolve one or more parties** of financial responsibility but I can't see that getting anywhere any time soon.

*when artificial wombs become a thing this will then have to change, I can see such things happening in my lifetime as well. Reproductive ethics is already running into the earlier versions of this issue -- a woman has her eggs extracted and frozen, then gets divorced. What do? Said gamete is fertilised. What do?

**It is possible to have three genetic parents these days (mitochondrial DNA transplants are a thing in humans now, right now it is for medical reasons but I can see it being a thing in the future along with other types of genetic engineering).

On "incapability" then I would also say anybody or any age -- if some unfortunate 13 year old wanders into a clinic then no questions asked, it might also be a modifier for the viability limits but I would have to consider where I might start to draw lines here.
I occasionally see people picture themselves as some kind of ninja Rambo character for some cause or goal, this despite them possibly getting winded by running up three flights of stairs. I find this bizarre in most instances (as per the "traditional" version my weapons and I are unlikely to be heading to the middle east any time soon) but I could very much see myself going there for those that would have a pop at medics. Fortunately that is not a thing in the UK, or indeed really outside the US from what I have seen.

There is a lot more to consider (do you do waiting periods, what sort of questions do you ask, will you provide but encourage keeping..., though for those then no, medical and no) but I will leave it there for now.

As the Carlin sketch was already taken I will go with a favourite song
 

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Some crazies even say the morning after pill shouldn't be used.

This is because it paralyzes the cilia in the fallopian tubes - thus inhibiting a potentially fertilized egg in the tube from traveling to the uterus.

This is called an abortifacient method of birth control. So...what are you gonna do about it. Some people are really convinced that an embryo 1 cell big needs to be protected at all costs - despite the fact that the body spontaneously aborts 50% of pregnancies itself.
What are the side effects of it lt? What if your not pregenat?
 

kuwanger

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You seem to be conflating the idea of a fetus with the that of a child that's already been born (or whatever you're trying to get across with your "dolphin" argument, I honestly don't understand it). The reality of the matter is that until roughly 22 weeks into the pregnancy, the thing that's inside a woman's body ISN'T human; or at least not a separate biological entity capable of surviving without being connected directly to the mechanisms meant to keep it alive inside the womb. Until that point, a fetus is effectively a grouping of stem cells that has no conscious thought or idea of what goes on in its surroundings.

My point with the dolphin analogy is that using intelligence as an argument is that an adult dolphin has more intelligence than a one day old, yet killing a dolphin isn't illegal. As far as not being a separate biological entity, that's true until birth yet nominally that's not how long until abortion is considered legal. The actual viability of premature infants is not as simple as viable or not viable, even with intervention. We don't consider those who die as not human. I will agree, though, that being biologically linked is a clear distinction, but I wonder what our standard will be in the future if we develop an artificial womb capable of supporting a fetus from even the earliest of stages. Will abortion still be a legal thing, or will we mandate a transfer to an artificial womb?

And saying "it grows into a human" is simply a non-argument, due to the fact that not only are there many times throughout the early pregnancy stages where a "fetus" could self-terminate without the mother even knowing (a prime example of this would be a fertilized egg dislodging from the uterine wall and leaving the body with the next period), you're also effectively saying that every sperm cell and every egg has a right to life. Which is absurd, there's nothing that would classify either of those as "human," despite that they are what multiply into an embryo.

Neither a sperm cell nor an egg alone has the ability to grow into a human alone, so they're no more a human than a mole is. As far as self-terminating fetuses, there's also plenty of infants who self-terminate because of congenital defects. We don't consider them non-human. I think it's disingenuous to conflate self-termination through a biological process with intentional termination through an outside process.

You're implying that the responsibility of taking care of your birthed child is in any way equivalent to the involuntary process a woman's body goes through to develop offspring throughout the stages of pregnancy; it isn't.

Nominally, the process of pregnancy makes you responsible for the birth child, for which we have a standard legal process of alleviating oneself of that responsibility of which murder is not a part of it. And nominally, the process of sex makes you responsible for pregnancy--rape excluded, although some would also include birth control failures--, for which we have a standard legal process of alleviating oneself of that responsibility of which murder is a part of it. If you prefer manslaughter or some other term, that's up to you.

You seem to think that the idea you're proposing is absurd, when really it's quite practical. I don't see why you brought pigs into the argument, though

It's not that I think it's absurd. It's that we clearly don't hold this standard universally. Until we do, we're conveniently using intelligence as a standard and ignoring it when it's inconvenient.

Sure moles don't grow into separate human beings on their own. But actually it's possible to create a human being from a mole. You can insert the nucleus from a mole in an unfertilized egg and produce something capable of becoming human. Further - if you supplied the right growth factors to a mole cell itself you could ditch the fertilized egg entirely.

Now let's talk about a sperm. Given the right circumstances it too can create human life. Does it matter that it's only one half? Should we be concerned with protecting the life of a sperm?

If you actually create a human from a mole and implant it into a womb and it's at least as probably viable as one nominally created, I'd say it's a human. If the odds of a human being born are astronomical, I'd tend to say it's not human. Taking a viable embryo out of a womb makes it non-viable, and when it's a conscious act, then it's murder/manslaughter/whatever. With sperm: it can't alone produce a viable human and even introduced into the vicinity of an egg, it's not guaranteed to fertilize it. Knowingly terminating viable fertilized eggs in a vial before implantation would not be murder, I guess. I'll readily admit it's a gray area, like a lot of questions are. But putting out hypothetical could-be-made-into-a-human isn't reasonable anymore than was-going-to-die-eventually-anyways to say whether something is human or not or something intentional terminated is human or not. Regardless, it should all stay legal because it's currently the most acceptable pragmatic choice.

Anyways, that's the general gist of my feelings.
 

linuxares

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What are the side effects of it lt? What if your not pregenat?
Pretty much a birth control pill on crack. It's really no big sized effects from them, more than the standard once. An ex of mine needed to take one because of the condom broke, and it happened once with my current girlfriend. So abort away!
 
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FAST6191

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but I wonder what our standard will be in the future if we develop an artificial womb capable of supporting a fetus from even the earliest of stages. Will abortion still be a legal thing, or will we mandate a transfer to an artificial womb?



Neither a sperm cell nor an egg alone has the ability to grow into a human alone, so they're no more a human than a mole is. As far as self-terminating fetuses, there's also plenty of infants who self-terminate because of congenital defects. We don't consider them non-human. I think it's disingenuous to conflate self-termination through a biological process with intentional termination through an outside process.

The future question is a fun one.
I would go with
Assuming viable embryos are not a rare commodity wherever you are at, or you are in a location where for religious/cultural reasons it is the case, then I don't see why it would be.

Probably a shift as things go from possible, slightly risky and expensive through to not only possible but less risky than biological and finally "it is odd that you would even consider naturally". Main modifiers being where robots capable of raising children are at and how far along into the post scarcity thing were are at, possibly also serious life extension but that starts going way off into science fiction for this particular discussion.

I don't think I can get to disingenuous, if nothing else "why don't we investigate every miscarriage as a potential murder?" comes into play.

Equally "Neither a sperm cell nor an egg alone" then technically two eggs can merge into one and has been the case for a while http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1431489.stm
 

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