The U.S. is more dangerously divided than any other wealthy democracy. Is there a way back from the brink? (Yascha Mounk)

[Creamu]

If you have a point, please make it.

My point is that the Democratic Party did overturn an election they didn't like, with violence.

 

[Lacius]

My point is that the Democratic Party did overturn an election they didn't like, with violence.

What was the election, when was the election, who was the candidate, and where was the violence?

If you are going to make bold claims, please be specific, because I have no idea what you're talking about, and you seem to be wasting my time.

FDR won his elections by pretty comfortable margins.

 

[Creamu]

What was the election, when was the election, who was the candidate, and where was the violence?

If you are going to make bold claims, please be specific, because I have no idea what you're talking about, and you seem to be wasting my time.

FDR won his elections by pretty comfortable margins.

He 'liberated' germany.

 

[Dakitten]

He 'liberated' germany.

Once upon a time, Plastic Man, Mister Fantastic, Elongated Man, and Stretch Armstrong came together to hear this comment and replied in unison with "Now that is a stretch!"

Didn't Germany declare war on the United States first, in solidarity with Japan? Kinda a whole different sort of deal.

 

[Creamu]

Once upon a time, Plastic Man, Mister Fantastic, Elongated Man, and Stretch Armstrong came together to hear this comment and replied in unison with "Now that is a stretch!"

Didn't Germany declare war on the United States first, in solidarity with Japan? Kinda a whole different sort of deal.

At this point the USA is famous for dubious claims for being dragged into wars. Weapons of mass. Fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. No shame.

 

[Dakitten]

At this point the USA is famous for dubious claims for being dragged into wars. Weapons of mass. Fight them there so we don't have to fight them here. No shame.

Funny that, the last big example of this was with a... baseball enthusiast!.. who was also a Republican president that squeaked in without the popular vote. Plenty of shame, but not much that supports your original point, conspiracy-kun.

Swing and a miss!

 

[Deleted member 114266]

Does the rioting and destruction in DC on the day of Trump's inauguration count? The damage was more spread out but much higher than on Jan 6th. Fewer grandmas picking up discarded water bottles litter, and more burning of police cars.

 

[Creamu]

Funny that, the last big example of this was with a... baseball enthusiast!.. who was also a Republican president that squeaked in without the popular vote. Plenty of shame, but not much that supports your original point, conspiracy-kun.

Swing and a miss!

The USA, the manhatten project to be exact, developed the nuclear bomb, while estimating a 10% chance of whiping out the entire planet when testing it for the first time. When the nuclear bomb was developed unfortunatly germany was already defeated and japan asked for capitulation. So what did the USA do? It nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki after japan asked for capitulation. They wanted to nuke Kyoto, because it was and thankfully still is the historical/cultural center of japan, but that got too much push back. So the USA nuked a country that sought for capitulation, not to speak of the countless equally horrific fire bombings (civil targets; not of strategic benifit). Interesting development for an actor that was forced into war.

So how did the war with japan begin? The USA cut off the oil supply of the japanese. Doing this is putting your enemy into a position where he can go nowhere but physical escalation. When the japanese pilots approached pearl habor, the american government was aware of this, but chose not to tell the people on the ground. Why were they so interested in letting this happen without sounding alarm. The idea for the average american, many of them german themself, of engaging in such a war was quite unpopular, so a catastrophic event was a nice bump to kickstart the project.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

I think it goes much deeper than that. The european people of the world will cease to exist in any recognizeable way if their biospheres get repurposed as a breeding ground for the whole world population to breed in.

Ironically, the East Europeans had a much higher chance of surviving as a people under the dragonian Soviet rule than in the EU. Ukraine will learn that lesson once they are asked to take in people of other ethnicities or but cut from those sweet sweet Euros.

 

[Deleted member 114266]

The USA, the manhatten project to be exact, developed the nuclear bomb, while estimating a 10% chance of whiping out the entire planet when testing it for the first time. When the nuclear bomb was developed unfortunatly germany was already defeated and japan asked for capitulation. So what did the USA do? It nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki after japan asked for capitulation. They wanted to nuke Kyoto, because it was and thankfully still is the historical/cultural center of japan, but that got too much push back. So the USA nuked a country that sought for capitulation, not to speak of the countless equally horrific fire bombings (civil targets; not of strategic benifit). Interesting development for an actor that was forced into war.

So how did the war with japan begin? The USA cut off the oil supply of the japanese. Doing this is putting your enemy into a position where he can go nowhere but physical escalation. When the japanese pilots approached pearl habor, the american government was aware of this, but chose not to tell the people on the ground. Why were they so interested in letting this happen without sounding alarm. The idea for the average american, many of them german themselves, of engaging in such a war was quite unpopular, so a catastrophic event was a nice bump to kickstart the project.

You act like the Japanese were done and seeking surrender. The American, British, and Chinese governments reiterated the demand for unconditional surrender of Japan, specifically stating that "the alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction".

Japan rejected this claim assuming they could negotiate something more beneficial. The Soviets were moving in and took out Japan's largest fighting force the Kwantung Army in Manchuria. And were staging for a brutal main land assault. With the fanaticism in the Japanese military at the time, it's unlikely many of the generals and admirals would have stopped fighting. Right or wrong the nukings were shock and awe meant to bring an immediate stop to the war. Hiroshima was Aug 6th with Nagasaki on the 9th. Over the evening of the 9-10th the Emperor announced his decision to accept the terms demanded by the Allies in the Potsdam Declaration. With official announcements as public broadcast on the 15th along with their surrender. Sept 2nd was when the surrender documents were signed.

The manhatten project also wasn't in a vacuum. The Germans were researching nuclear weapons as well. However, due to corruption and ineptitude, they never got very far. This was unknown to the allies at the time as it was a secretive project with few in the German government being aware of the failures.

 

[Creamu]

You act like the Japanese were done and seeking surrender. The American, British, and Chinese governments reiterated the demand for unconditional surrender of Japan, specifically stating that "the alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction".

Japan rejected this claim assuming they could negotiate something more beneficial. The Soviets were moving in and took out Japan's largest fighting force the Kwantung Army in Manchuria. And were staging for a brutal main land assault. With the fanaticism in the Japanese military at the time, it's unlikely many of the generals and admirals would have stopped fighting. Right or wrong the nukings were shock and awe meant to bring an immediate stop to the war. Hiroshima was Aug 6th with Nagasaki on the 9th. Over the evening of the 9-10th the Emperor announced his decision to accept the terms demanded by the Allies in the Potsdam Declaration. With official announcements as public broadcast on the 15th along with their surrender. Sept 2nd was when the surrender documents were signed.

The manhatten project also wasn't in a vacuum. The Germans were researching nuclear weapons as well. However, due to corruption and ineptitude, they never got very far. This was unknown to the allies at the time as it was a secretive project with few in the German government being aware of the failures.

You can spin narratives to a point where nuclear attacks on civil targets become rationalizable. Apart from that this is messed up nonsense concocted by psychopaths of the highest degree.

 

[Creamu]

Ironically, the East Europeans had a much higher chance of surviving as a people under the dragonian Soviet rule than in the EU. Ukraine will learn that lesson once they are asked to take in people of other ethnicities or but cut from those sweet sweet Euros.

The east has (at least in part) learned it's lesson from their bolshevik leaders that erradicated 66.000.000 of them according to Solschenizyn. How the ukraine was unable to learn this lesson after things like the holodomor is beyond me. This not even 100 years ago.

Also you can survive annihilation of a huge chunk of your population. What you cannot survive is getting spiritually crippeld and demographicly overrun.

 

[Deleted member 114266]

You can spin narratives to a point where nuclear attacks on civil targets become rationalizable. Apart from that this is messed up nonsense concocted by psychopaths of the highest degree.

Where's the spin? I left it as right or wrong and stated nothing for historical facts.

We have no way of knowing how things would have played out were other choices made. But to truly understand history one has to have all of the facts in front of them, as well as be able to place themselves into the shoes of another looking at only the information available to them to say without a doubt if someone was a hero or demon.

Some would argue that the fire bombings were more cruel, and the joint western assault by the Soviets and eastern assault by MacArthur would have been much more costly.

 

[Creamu]

Where's the spin? I left it as right or wrong and stated nothing for historical facts.

We have no way of knowing how things would have played out were other choices made. But to truly understand history one has to have all of the facts in front of them, as well as be able to place themselves into the shoes of another looking at only the information available to them to say without a doubt if someone was a hero or demon.

Some would argue that the fire bombings were more cruel, and the joint western assault by the Soviets and eastern assault by MacArthur would have been much more costly.

EDIT: I suggest opening another thread since this is going too far off-topic.

 

[Creamu]

'No established democracy in recent history has been as deeply polarized as the U.S. “For the United States,” Jennifer McCoy, the lead author of the study and a political-science professor at Georgia State University, told me in an interview, “I am very pessimistic.”'

-Yascha Mounk

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...crat-republican-partisan-polarization/629925/

'In a survey, YouGov asked: “Do you personally believe that in the U.S., Democrats are trying to replace white Americans with immigrants and people of color who share Democrats’ views?”

73% of Trump voters responded “yes,” while just 8% of Biden voters – and 10% of Democrats overall – said the same. 33% of independent voters also said they believe that the Great Replacement is being pushed by Democrats.

The survey also asked: “Do you personally believe that in the U.S., Jewish people are trying to replace white Americans with immigrants and people of color who share Jewish people’s views?”

To this question, just 12% of Trump voters responded “yes,” as did 7% of Biden voters.'

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/new...eople-some-think-jews-are-doing-the-same.html

'- 50.1 percent expect to see a second American Civil War within years
- More than 40 percent favor a 'strong leader' over democracy and adhere to immigrant takeover belief
- One fifth expect to be gun-toting at a January 6 Capitol riot-style melee in the coming years
- California university researchers say results 'exceeded our worst expectations'
- Study follows mass shootings and comes amid controversial Washington hearings into January 6 insurrection'

-James Reinl

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...avis-democracy-threat-civil-war-politics.html

''Third is growing uncertainty about the stability and value of democracy in the US. Most
Americans across the political spectrum now perceive a serious threat to democracy in the
US. At the same time, nearly 70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and
Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”
Approximately 20% of Republicans, conservatives, and voters for Donald Trump
(and 9% of Democrats, liberals, and voters for Joe Biden) disagree with the statement that
“democracy is [the] best form of government.”'

-Garen J. Wintemute

https://www.riotimesonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/US-civil-war.pdf

'America is not split into two tribes, as we're sometimes told. In fact, we've identified seven distinct groups of Americans. These are our Hidden Tribes of America: distinguished not by who they are or what they look like, but what they believe.'

https://hiddentribes.us/

 

[Viri]

The people with power want the poor peasants to be divided. The people with power will try their best to keep poor people divided, because it's easier to control them.

 

[Dakitten]

The USA, the manhatten project to be exact, developed the nuclear bomb, while estimating a 10% chance of whiping out the entire planet when testing it for the first time. When the nuclear bomb was developed unfortunatly germany was already defeated and japan asked for capitulation. So what did the USA do? It nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki after japan asked for capitulation. They wanted to nuke Kyoto, because it was and thankfully still is the historical/cultural center of japan, but that got too much push back. So the USA nuked a country that sought for capitulation, not to speak of the countless equally horrific fire bombings (civil targets; not of strategic benifit). Interesting development for an actor that was forced into war.

So how did the war with japan begin? The USA cut off the oil supply of the japanese. Doing this is putting your enemy into a position where he can go nowhere but physical escalation. When the japanese pilots approached pearl habor, the american government was aware of this, but chose not to tell the people on the ground. Why were they so interested in letting this happen without sounding alarm. The idea for the average american, many of them german themself, of engaging in such a war was quite unpopular, so a catastrophic event was a nice bump to kickstart the project.

If I'm not mistaken, it seems as though you're actually damning the USA for its involvement in World War 2 and are trying to throw shade and blame on the Democrats for their involvement in a war against the most famous genocidal tyrant of all time... I did Nazi that comming from a conservative! Eh? Ehhhh?

Seriously though, this kinda sums up my problem with most of your threads. You pull statistics and opinions from the fringes, play pretend enlightened centrist, and make outrageous claims by skirting around the bigger issues and sniping at ice-cold trivial factoids whenever you think it might benefit your position... and like this train to nowhere you yourself started, you often derail.

The people with power want the poor peasants to be divided. The people with power will try their best to keep poor people divided, because it's easier to control them.

This is half true, but I actually want to use conspiracy-kun's chart to prove a point for a second. Putting aside how unreliable his sources tend to be, the chart isn't built to show a divide so much as show a center majority of indifferent, exhausted, and uninterested people. There is some truth that dividing people can make them easier to control, but it really is only half the equation. The other half is to burn out the majority so they don't take up arms for one side or another, because at some point dominance might get achieved if one side gets enough power off the fence. The majority of Americans want things like public healthcare, more funding for schools, support programs for kids, legalized marijuana, judicial reform, and abortion rights since they're kinda obvious positive things, but "centrists" would rather justify Nazis and handwave rights for all than allow progressives to seem like anything more than the other side of the insurrectionist right because a side getting power leads to change.

Long story short, everyone should ignore these crazy threads and find what pumps you up to fight for progress!

 

[ScaryHobbit]

• The Democratic Party didn't try to overturn an election they didn't like, with or without violence.

Either you are a terrible liar, or you have a terrible memory.

The nights after Trump was elected:




Trump's Inauguration:


And that's just been around Election Time. Portland for example has been a warzone for over 5 years now.

Then there was the George Floyd riots, where people attacked the White House itself:




The Swamp's goal for all of this violence was to try to force Trump to use the military against the rioters - hoping it would create a massacre. Then they would use that massacre to accuse Trump of being a dictator.

As for the Democratic *Party* - well, they put all their hopes on Special Counsel Robert Mueller to arrest Trump for "Russian Collusion", claiming that "Russian Collusion" rigged the election for Trump.
Mueller's findings: Trump exonerated of any and all wrongdoing. No arrest.
After that, the Dems tried to impeach him despite there being no evidence of Trump committing any crimes.
They wanted Trump arrested and removed not because he committed any crime (which has been proven over and over again he did not), but because they wanted him gone by any means necessary.

(PS to others: The arguing over WW2 and the atom bombs is distracting. We should stay on-topic.)

 

[Dakitten]

Rawr I'm insane and the libs were trying to martyr cult themselves into rebellion rawr conservative nonsense!

(PS to others: The arguing over WW2 and the atom bombs is distracting. We should stay on-topic.)

And thus my point is proven. Riots aren't the same as a coup, injustice isn't the same as insurrection, and the far left is not the same as the far right. It even ends with "Skip the pointing out of Nazi apologetics, lets get back to center." Golden.

 

[Creamu]

First of all I am positioned counter to the conservative position.

Seriously though, this kinda sums up my problem with most of your threads. You pull statistics and opinions from the fringes,

Yascha Mounk is as mainstream academic source as you can possibly get.

play pretend enlightened centrist,

I am a centrist in so far that I want the will of the peoples of this planet reflected in their own governments. This excludes of course international merchants that want to benifit from rooted people against their interests. In this sense I am an absolute centrist.

and make outrageous claims

We live in outrageous times.

by skirting around the bigger issues and sniping at ice-cold trivial factoids whenever you think it might benefit your position...

Can you demonstrate this for me, I don't know what you mean.

and like this train to nowhere you yourself started, you often derail.

Are you saying I want to derail my own threads?

(PS to others: The arguing over WW2 and the atom bombs is distracting. We should stay on-topic.)

I agree. I did anticipate that whatever ones perspective on my take was, that it would be met with humour (in retrospect obviously a miscalculation on my part). While there should be place in threads for humour and excursions, it is important to respect the structual integrity of a thread. As I saw that explaining my position wasn't going to get back on topic any time soon I aborted the discussion.