Who should pay for the US/Mexican wall?

[210modz]

Reality would like a word with you.

...or are you saying that shutting down the government and putting 800'000 people on unpaid jobs somehow increased his popularity since december?

Does it directly effect you? It directly effects my household and I'm 100% for it. It's basicly a paid holiday. Everyone will eventually get paid for time that they did not even work. You people are always looking for something to cry about. It usually doesn't even effect you nor do you know anything about what you speak of but hey you are soo edgy.

 

[aerios169]

well i am doctor on Mexico, i am not a bad people also i dont steal anything etc etc. so in my point of vew why me and people should pay for a wall that wants to be on US border. Is like that mongols should pay china´s great wall.

 

[Xzi]

Does it directly effect you? It directly effects my household and I'm 100% for it. It's basicly a paid holiday. Everyone will eventually get paid for time that they did not even work.

Not everyone can be so gullible and/or blindly trusting. Not to mention that bills don't wait for late paychecks to come in, and the vast majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck.

You people are always looking for something to cry about.

If Trump would just quit doing stupid shit, then there wouldn't be so much stupid shit in the news to discuss, or "cry about." C'est la vie.

It usually doesn't even effect you nor do you know anything about what you speak of but hey you are soo edgy.

He posted a source and stated some facts, nothing about it was edgy. Also nobody needs any unique qualifications to discuss politics, your attempts at gatekeeping are nonsense.

 

[210modz]

Not everyone can be so gullible and/or blindly trusting. Not to mention that bills don't wait for late paychecks to come in, and the vast majority of Americans live paycheck to paycheck.


If Trump would just quit doing stupid shit, then there wouldn't be so much stupid shit in the news to discuss, or "cry about." C'est la vie.


He posted a source and stated some facts, nothing about it was edgy. Also nobody needs any unique qualifications to discuss politics, your attempts at gatekeeping are nonsense.

0 facts. The whole poll isn't bipartisan. Your lack of any facts are quite laughable. The fact that you know nothing about the subject just makes you look like a bigger nincompoop everytime you reply. You are screaming "poor them" for people that are getting a paid vacation. Not only that. The facts are there. Walls work.

Now let's look at this stupid option.

"No one: I'm with border specialists, congress and the democrats who believe it's a waste of money"

Border patrol wants the wall. Who is more of a border specialist than border patrol? Who is the border specialist that he speaks about? It's for sure not the people on the Frontline because they have already stated their favor in the wall.

 

[Xzi]

0 facts. The whole poll isn't bipartisan. Your lack of any facts are quite laughable. The fact that you know nothing about the subject just makes you look like a bigger nincompoop everytime you reply. You are screaming "poor them" for people that are getting a paid vacation. Not only that. The facts are there. Walls work.

Not everyone is being a lazy fuck, there are people actually continuing to work without pay. And you're right, walls did work. In the 7th century. The fact is that the vast majority of illegal immigrants arrive via plane and simply overstay their work visas, and a wall would just drive that number up further.

Now let's look at this stupid option.

"No one: I'm with border specialists, congress and the democrats who believe it's a waste of money"

Border patrol wants the wall. Who is more of a border specialist than border patrol? Who is the border specialist that he speaks about? It's for sure not the people on the Frontline because they have already stated their favor in the wall.

They were against the wall since 2012, and only as of a couple weeks ago have they declared their support for the wall. Hard to take their new position as anything but politically expedient, and they don't give good reasoning in support of that position, either.

 

[210modz]

Not everyone is being a lazy fuck, there are people actually continuing to work without pay. And you're right, walls did work. In the 7th century. The fact is that the vast majority of illegal immigrants arrive via plane and simply overstay their work visas, and a wall would just drive that number up further.


They were against the wall since 2012, and only as of a couple weeks ago have they declared their support for the wall. Hard to take their new position as anything but politically expedient, and they don't give good reasoning in support of that position, either.

OH so now the ones that aren't working are "lazy fucks". Put that shoe further in your mouth. The stupid is leaking out even more.

The left was has cried about the border crises for decades. But now they want to open the flood gates. This isn't about the wall. This is about their hatred towards the man that was elected. You obviously also fit into that catagory. Your "facts" on how illegals get over here are misconstrued. Just because it looks good to you when you type it doesn't make it factual. The gang members and alot of the bad crowd don't come by visa. They hop the border because they wouldn't get accepted for entry into the U.S. you can argue all you want. You are just stating opinions. There is no sustenance to your argument. You are just just mad that daddy Trump made your little vagina sandy. The wall will be built and I will make sure to make a poll on how sandy the vaginas are then.

 

[nashismo]

Build casinos, hotels and resorts on the WALL and then it pays for itself, gives mexicans work at the same time, everybody happy

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

I remember this video of a colored man (I'm lazy, so my simple minded self would define him as a black man, others might call him 'African American' or whatevz) talking to a white millenial that was publicly ranting about trump being a racist and screwing everything up due to the news saying what not. In response, the other man said 'Thanks to Trump, unemployment rates in the black communities went down' he even went and said numbers were better than when Obama was president.

That being said, the only things I hear about America regarding Donald Trump are:
A. How bad Trump is, regarless of what he does. he's bad, even if it's something he said ages ago or whatever the situation. anything he says is bad.
B. He looks weird so he's a weirdo. But please don't just be, because you hurt my feelies. But Big 'ol Trumpy is a meanieboo..
C. The European economy is worse than it used to be because the american economy seems to be flourishing. (... this.... )

I mean... If I recall correctly, nearly nothing of what people were panicking about is happening.
But that could be me. It just feels like everyone loves to complain about anything that's in over their head because self importance is top priority..

I'm probably missing something, but all I'm hearing is 'My opinion is worth more than yours, because here are the research results on opinions.'.
Well, overpopulation is a problem too, though...

You are missing the fact that 80% of the media and 100% of Hollywood are socialists and that media conglomerate lies every day to light the fire of hate towards a business man who became president, a someone who they cannot control. In the end is all about the money, they cannot control the money (president) and these people enrage, well they killed Kennedy for his policies, no big surprise. But this time their wet dream is that someone hate filled (by the brainwashing media) could kill him in their behalf, washing their hands, I see it pretty clearly.

 

[Taleweaver]

Does it directly effect you? It directly effects my household and I'm 100% for it. It's basicly a paid holiday. Everyone will eventually get paid for time that they did not even work. You people are always looking for something to cry about. It usually doesn't even effect you nor do you know anything about what you speak of but hey you are soo edgy.

We call out lies where we see them.

Oh, and...how about we stay on-topic a bit? Attempting to make this about me isn't going to change anything.

 

[Fugelmir]

Reality would like a word with you.

...or are you saying that shutting down the government and putting 800'000 people on unpaid jobs somehow increased his popularity since december?

I wouldn't pin the shutdown entirely on him and I definitely don't think his voting block does. If he actually succeeds in getting the funding here with this risk, he's gonna see a massive surge. Like the most correct analysts posit: if he gets the wall built, he will guarantee his 2nd term.

By comparison, our government and liberal prime minister is losing us jobs with more regulation. Anyway, (shāʾa llāh إن شاء الله‎) someone needs to clone him and replace world leaders with his clones.

 

[cdcrossy]

fuck it ive got enuff lego ill build it lol

 

[FAST6191]

The left was has cried about the border crises for decades. But now they want to open the flood gates. This isn't about the wall. This is about their hatred towards the man that was elected. You obviously also fit into that catagory. Your "facts" on how illegals get over here are misconstrued. Just because it looks good to you when you type it doesn't make it factual. The gang members and alot of the bad crowd don't come by visa.

From where I sit the open border set is a fairly small segment of whatever the US cares to deem left wing politics these days. If you want to laugh at them then allow me to join you in that. Border controls are and enforcement is still wanted. The question is, and always was, would building, manning and maintaining a high wall (as in high enough to need big boy foundations and construction methods) across that crazy a length and hostile conditions (or land possibly not even owned by them, and without infrastructure to bring big lorries to it) provide any kind of value for money, and could such things be spent more effectively (if indeed increased security is necessary and it is not better spent on something else the government cares to handle). If you are going to break things down into types of would be border botherers (something I would do as well in assessing the potential efficacy) then it gets even more fun as the numbers are fewer, and gangs probably do have the funds to do a tunnel or boats if the people needed for their enterprises can't be bred/created there or lack the papers to go by more legitimate means (either fronting as a businessman or by having papers and training abroad).

"facts" wise Xzi appears to have endorsed the following
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/6836...tion-mostly-occur-heres-what-the-data-tell-us
It cites recent data from the department of homeland security and the customs and border protection which outside of a magic mirror are about as accurate as we are likely to get. If you have something better then please do share with the class.

 

[mrdude]

I'll tell you something, as much as some of you people dislike Trump. He's the only president I can think of that does what he says he's going to do - or at least he tries to. He also talks straight and gives a straight answer to a question - unlike 99.9% of politicians that waffle on for ages but don't actually give an answer to a question that's been asked of them.

Like or hate him, he's the only president who's been able to talk to North Korea and try to bring a bit more peace and stability to that part of the world. Also he's for America and puts them first (especially for trade), which all good leaders should be doing. Put your own people first before anyone else.

That's from an outsiders of USA view of him. I hope he gets his wall and your country makes it harder for economic migrants & gang bangers to enter your country from the south.

 

[FAST6191]

I'll tell you something, as much as some of you people dislike Trump. He's the only president I can think of that does what he says he's going to do - or at least he tries to. He also talks straight and gives a straight answer to a question - unlike 99.9% of politicians that waffle on for ages but don't actually give an answer to a question that's been asked of them.

Like or hate him, he's the only president who's been able to talk to North Korea and try to bring a bit more peace and stability to that part of the world. Also he's for America and puts them first (especially for trade), which all good leaders should be doing. Put your own people first before anyone else.

That's from an outsiders of USA view of him. I hope he gets his wall and your country makes it harder for economic migrants & gang bangers to enter your country from the south.

But if said straight talk is bollocks and based on not much reason it counts for not a lot. Similarly I wish politicians would go back to waffling -- so called soundbite politics seems to have become the order of the day this last decade or more. Waffling at least could be picked apart.

North Korea wise I am not seeing it. He managed to contain the trouble of the day but results wise it seems to be business as usual (give or take China pulling back a tiny bit). Said China thing might also couple with the isolationist thing to see them have to try something as a matter of simple economics.

"For America". Are not most politicians this? A trade focus (or places where long distance shipping is a thing) is but one of many options (foreign policy, infrastructure, domestic issues, war, international relations all being other options). Similarly depending upon how you want to view it ensuring your own people are not starving and have a roof over their head is one thing*, and if you can raise your position on the international stage instead of ploughing that money into a circle (as opposed to generating new wealth by international trade or something) then that is a different matter.

*the different levels and responsibilities of government is a fun one, some reckoning social programs and infrastructure are not the domain of the government (what is typically dubbed right wing in the US supposedly favouring less government intervention outside of law enforcement and military matters).

"I hope he gets his wall and your country makes it harder for economic migrants & gang bangers to enter your country from the south."
Is a wall likely to be that effective here? If they could flick a switch and have the latter happen I am sure many would, however the billions it is likely to cost to pull it off many have to question if it is better spent elsewhere, and it would seem that is what we are discussing here (or trying to at least).

 

[Taleweaver]

I wouldn't pin the shutdown entirely on him and I definitely don't think his voting block does. If he actually succeeds in getting the funding here with this risk, he's gonna see a massive surge. Like the most correct analysts posit: if he gets the wall built, he will guarantee his 2nd term.

Hmm...there is certainly something to be said on that. I won't lie: I'm a very stern believer that Trump caused the shutdown, and I'm sure you've heard the arguments for this stance as well. But that doesn't make me right because indeed: if Pelosi and Schumer would've agreed, the government would be open (or not even had shut down in the first place).

Still, that doesn't change what I replied to you. You said that Trump's more popular than Obama in this point in his presidency. I pointed out that he was a good 6 or 7% points behind Obama (and the worst in tallied history) in december. So in order for your statement to be true, he would have needed to bridge that difference since then. Honestly: that seems unlikely. Even if this wasn't his fault, it still remains so that he's in command of a government in crisis. A self-inflicted crisis if you ask me (illegal immigration is steadily dropping since 2000), but that's up for debate.

Can you please tell me why he would see a surge in popularity if he manages to get the funding? His most loyal fans will certainly stand with him, but from what I perceive, the rest of the US voting public doesn't have little to celebrate. I've said it before: the only way he can keep his election promise is if he can persuade Mexico to pay for it. I honestly think that the majority of swing voters will remember that part of the promise, and will feel betrayed rather than helped by whom they voted for.

 

[Clydefrosch]

Hmm...there is certainly something to be said on that. I won't lie: I'm a very stern believer that Trump caused the shutdown, and I'm sure you've heard the arguments for this stance as well. But that doesn't make me right because indeed: if Pelosi and Schumer would've agreed, the government would be open (or not even had shut down in the first place).

the only other person besides trump who caused the shutdown is McConnell.

There was a bill with unanimous support, ready to be signed.
Donald said he wouldn't. So Mitch is not even putting it to a vote (which should have been 100-0 passed) because it would force Donald to veto it and then force republicans to veto his veto.

These two are the ones who carry this. No one else.

And jesus, can you imagine if a president actually got away with this level of terrorism to get funding for anything against the wishes of both parties and the largest part of the nations inhabitants?

 

[kuwanger]

But that doesn't make me right because indeed: if Pelosi and Schumer would've agreed, the government would be open (or not even had shut down in the first place).

The government shutdown in December because Trump first said he'd take a spending bill without funding on the wall then flipped on that position. Yes, if Democrats were on board with the wall a lot earlier, the shutdown might not have happened. However, it's precisely the fact that Trump waffled that caused the Republican controlled Congress to go home for Christmas break and left the Democrat controlled House to come in on January to try to negotiate with Trump over spending, or not, for a wall.

It's precisely this current scenario which is why such a claim of a wall == 2nd term could hold true. If the wall had been funded and no shutdown occurred, it wouldn't have meant much. At this point, it's no longer about getting things done or effective governance. It's all about getting your opponent to blink first and expecting voters to bet on the winners. Republicans did it to Obama. Sadly, regardless of whether it's a legitimate disagreement on policy or power politics, Democrats are doing it to Trump.

 

[Taleweaver]

The government shutdown in December because Trump first said he'd take a spending bill without funding on the wall then flipped on that position. Yes, if Democrats were on board with the wall a lot earlier, the shutdown might not have happened. However, it's precisely the fact that Trump waffled that caused the Republican controlled Congress to go home for Christmas break and left the Democrat controlled House to come in on January to try to negotiate with Trump over spending, or not, for a wall.

It's precisely this current scenario which is why such a claim of a wall == 2nd term could hold true. If the wall had been funded and no shutdown occurred, it wouldn't have meant much. At this point, it's no longer about getting things done or effective governance. It's all about getting your opponent to blink first and expecting voters to bet on the winners. Republicans did it to Obama. Sadly, regardless of whether it's a legitimate disagreement on policy or power politics, Democrats are doing it to Trump.

You don't need to remind me: I'm very aware that Trump was running without serious opposition for nearly two year. Of course, shouting "it's all the republican's fault" doesn't sound very convincing when it's your own party blocking your pipe dream.

But I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that Trump deliberately delayed his wall-idea until the democrats won midterm so there would be more of a showdown going on?

(I'd reply with "nobody can be THAT stupid"...but he got the most v...but he got the votes where they mattered before. So...I don't know).

 

[kuwanger]

You don't need to remind me: I'm very aware that Trump was running without serious opposition for nearly two year. Of course, shouting "it's all the republican's fault" doesn't sound very convincing when it's your own party blocking your pipe dream.

But I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that Trump deliberately delayed his wall-idea until the democrats won midterm so there would be more of a showdown going on?

As I understand it, in 2017 his party rebuked the wall idea--probably because it would have made their chances of reelection much worse, less than 25% of Republicans supported funding it--and Trump then said he would veto the next major spending bill--I assume not counting military spending--unless it included funding for the border wall. So, in 2017 he "fought" for it for a while but gave up on it. Then in 2018 when it was clear Republicans (and Democrats) still didn't want to pay for the wall, he waffled again.

What happened next? Trump caved and it was a media frenzy, especially from his own base, on how readily he gave up on his MAGA promise. So, whether it was a fear of losing his base or purely ego, he waffled back into at that point was a shutdown because by then Congress had already mostly left. That it's now turned into the predictable Democrats to be blamed to rally his base? I think that was pure luck on his part as he's tried to manage damage control. The reality, of course, is everyone that's not his base--which includes most Republican politicians--can trivially see that first he caved to his own party, then to his base.

Of course, this point speaks to the oddity of the current situation. On the one hand, there's some clear truth to the notion of a "deep state" except that it's really a Republican-Democrat Duopoly state where both parties jockey over their own positions with only some related moves towards fulfilling their constituents wants. So, we elect a President that's more in line with the actual representation of at least some significant minority of the population--as half of people don't vote and elections usually show a win of 49%:45% or the like--, but he has little power to a Congressional base that's more interested in the status quo because that's the path least likely to lose them their job.

tl;dr - I only wish Trump was actually so smart instead of just a sniveling coward politician. He thinks all he has to do is play to his base and enough Republicans will support him over the Democrats. I wonder if the "deep state" Republicans will chose to not nominate him come 2020.

 

[Xzi]

OH so now the ones that aren't working are "lazy fucks". Put that shoe further in your mouth. The stupid is leaking out even more

I can understand not showing up for work if you aren't getting paid, but if the expectation is that you will get paid, you might as well work for it. The bigger point here is that "forced vacation" is not actually vacation. Nobody is out partying it up in early January with the government shut down.

The left was has cried about the border crises for decades. But now they want to open the flood gates. This isn't about the wall. This is about their hatred towards the man that was elected.

The fuck are you talking about? "The man that was elected" is the one that chose to shut down the government, not the left. I can post a video clip of Trump taking credit for the shutdown about ten times in a row if you want me to.

You obviously also fit into that catagory. Your "facts" on how illegals get over here are misconstrued. Just because it looks good to you when you type it doesn't make it factual. The gang members and alot of the bad crowd don't come by visa. They hop the border because they wouldn't get accepted for entry into the U.S. you can argue all you want. You are just stating opinions. There is no sustenance to your argument.

@FAST6191 posted a source with the facts that pretty much everybody bases their information on. Your speculation remains sourceless and without merit. If you actually wanted to reduce illegal immigration, you would be angriest at the people that employ illegals, because as long as there are positions open for them, they'll keep coming here, wall or no.

You are just just mad that daddy Trump made your little vagina sandy. The wall will be built and I will make sure to make a poll on how sandy the vaginas are then.

Again, Trump has zero leverage here. The longer the shutdown goes on, the lower his numbers drop. Everybody knows who to blame for this temper tantrum. I don't know what magical fix you expect Trump to pull out his ass, but if the Democrats haven't caved yet, they aren't going to.

 

[fiis]

If people need a wall they should pay. The wall will not affect me at all.