Your thoughts on suicide

[gifi4]

@Urza
Well what if it does contribute, what if, there are 2 afterlifes: A Heaven type afterlife and a Hell type afterlife, What if the people who suicide go to the hell type and the people who live their life completely (This includes if they die at the age of 5 or something because of something like getting hit by a car or w/e as long as they didn't wish for it) go the the heaven type afterlife...Everything I just said is a "What if"... There is no way to get a 100% answer for this.

If you believe in a Christian-style afterlife, you might as well believe any other mystical fairy tale construed by human, as nothing on this Earth provides enough evidence to really point to any of them.

Roll a die and pick: your result will be just as accurate.

Exactly why I said "What if".

What if only those who kill themselves gain access to the gates of Heaven, and everyone else goes to Hell?

There is truly nothing productive that can come of that discussion.

I know, that's why I said "What if", simply put, no one can answer it.

 

[Ace Gunman]

As someone who has dabbled myself in thoughts of a suicidal nature, I've developed quite an opinion on the matter. First of all, its a misconception that if you are suicidal you must be either mentally ill or chemically imbalanced. Some people legitimately have cause to kill themselves, they are simply unhappy due to legitimate circumstances.

Two examples of such: You are a soldier, you have been captured and are being tortured. There is no hope you will ever be free, the only thing you have to look forward to is enduring more torture and then eventually they will decide to kill you. If you get the chance, you should kill yourself in that scenario. There is no reason to endure that pain when there is no hope and a way out of that situation.

The second example would be loss on a large scale. Your family was just murdered in front of your eyes, your spouse, your children, they are gone. Your job falls apart because you snap due to the trauma, you can no longer pay bills and will likely end up on the street, friendships mean nothing to you in a world without the ones you love. That person has a legitimate claim to killing them self. One could honestly say their life will only get progressively worse, it not a sure thing, but its a safe bet.

My personal opinion on suicide is that it is a personal choice. If you are unhappy with your life... and I'm not talking about some teenage angst bullshit where your hormones are raging and your mind is undeveloped, I would recommend that a depressed teenager stick it out, as chances are they will feel differently in a few years. But if you are unhappy with your life as an adult, and you legitimately feel it will not ever get better, as much as everything else is a choice in this world (IE you can choose to do nothing with your life and waste it, choose to live dangerously, etc); whether you live or die should be your choice as well.

We are forced into this world, not given a choice in any regard as to what our life will be like, who our parents will be, how it will all turn out, or if you even would have chosen to be born in the hypothetical situation where you had that sort of choice. The least one should be able to choose is their own destiny.

Now some will say, and many have, that suicide is selfish, that it would potentially destroy your family and friends. This is true, it is selfish in that respect. There is no two ways about it, you are making a decision for you in that scenario, and no one else. However, you know what else is selfish? Asking, forcing, or guilt tripping someone into continuing life when they are legitimately unhappy and (within the correct scenario) that likely not ever improving.

It is just as selfish for one person to say to another "You can't kill yourself, because it would destroy me", as it is for that person to commit suicide and do so. Because in either side of that scenario, you are putting your feelings ahead of someone else. You are telling them "You need to stay alive regardless of how bad you feel, because it keeps me from feeling bad", which is just as backwards when you truly consider it.

A side note, if I may: I do think it is entirely selfish to kill yourself in a particularly gruesome fashion. Someone has to find your body. Your grotesque blood covered, excrement smelling corpse. Brain matter splattered against the wall, blood pouring from your eyes, etc. I am painting a particularly gory picture to dissuade everyone from doing it in that fashion. Someone will find you, probably a loved one, and that will haunt them for the rest of their lives. You may not care once you are dead, but try and be considerate of others while you aren't.

I am not necessarily advocating suicide, I think in most cases your life would probably improve at some point, but there are some people who have a legitimate claim to doing so. It isn't always a matter of simple depression. If you lose your arms and legs in an explosion you certainly have a case for taking your own life; but if you are just a manic depressive, get some meds, you aren't really sad, you are just being told you are by chemical responses.

I will leave you on an excerpt I read in a Superman comic recently (Superman issue #701, for anyone who is interested), in which Superman attempted to talk a suicidal individual down from a ledge when he could have stopped her in an instant. Making her a promise that he would not intervene if she made her choice:

"A friend of mine, many years ago, took her life. She was terminally ill, every day she was in agony, and she decided one day that she knew-- knew without question-- that she would never have another happy day. And see... well, I guess you could say she checked out early. I understood, I didn't approve, I still don't, but I understood.

If you honestly believe, in your heart of hearts, that you will never, ever have another happy day... then step out into the air. I'll keep my promise, I won't stop you.

But if you think there's a chance-- no matter how small-- that there might just be one more happy day out there-- --then take my hand."

Words to live by, I think.

 

[Sterling]

@Urza
Well what if it does contribute, what if, there are 2 afterlifes: A Heaven type afterlife and a Hell type afterlife, What if the people who suicide go to the hell type and the people who live their life completely (This includes if they die at the age of 5 or something because of something like getting hit by a car or w/e as long as they didn't wish for it) go the the heaven type afterlife...Everything I just said is a "What if"... There is no way to get a 100% answer for this.

If you believe in a Christian-style afterlife, you might as well believe any other mystical fairy tale construed by human, as nothing on this Earth provides enough evidence to really point to any of them.

Roll a die and pick: your result will be just as accurate.

Exactly why I said "What if".

What if only those who kill themselves gain access to the gates of Heaven, and everyone else goes to Hell?

There is truly nothing productive that can come of that discussion.

So what you're saying is, if what you believe in is purely scientific, and the theories that this belief entails can neither prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, then this is more productive than talking about a religious point of view. Bullshit. Both of you, don't talk about things that you cannot prove, or disprove in the eyes of others. Keep the discussion out of that sector of the galaxy.

 

[Urza]

So what you're saying is, if what you believe in is purely scientific, and the theories that this belief entails can neither prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, then this is more productive than talking about a religious point of view. Bullshit. Both of you, don't talk about things that you cannot prove, or disprove in the eyes of others. Keep the discussion out of that sector of the galaxy.

Before you get your name engraved on that high and mighty pedestal of yours, please explain to me what would be accomplished if we pursued that line of conversation.

 

[Sterling]

So what you're saying is, if what you believe in is purely scientific, and the theories that this belief entails can neither prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, then this is more productive than talking about a religious point of view. Bullshit. Both of you, don't talk about things that you cannot prove, or disprove in the eyes of others. Keep the discussion out of that sector of the galaxy.

Before you get your name engraved on that high and mighty pedestal of yours, please explain to me what would be accomplished if we pursued that line of conversation.

Nothing, Nada, Zip. Neither of you, and I for sure won't, stop going back and forth about that subject. It's safer for this topic, and more respectful for the forum in none of us get another topic locked because we cannot control ourselves. Dig? Also, this pedestal will never have my name on it, as I will never be deserving of the title: "High and mighty."

EDIT: Clarification.

 

[Urza]

So what you're saying is, if what you believe in is purely scientific, and the theories that this belief entails can neither prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, then this is more productive than talking about a religious point of view. Bullshit. Both of you, don't talk about things that you cannot prove, or disprove in the eyes of others. Keep the discussion out of that sector of the galaxy.

Before you get your name engraved on that high and mighty pedestal of yours, please explain to me what would be accomplished if we pursued that line of conversation.

Nothing, Nada, Zip. Neither of you, and I for sure won't, stop going back and forth about that topic. It's safer for this topic, and more respectful for the forum in none of us get another topic locked because we cannot control ourselves. Dig? Also, this pedestal will never have my name on it, as I will never be deserving of the title: "High and mighty."

I think your reading comprehension has failed you.

 

[Sterling]

So what you're saying is, if what you believe in is purely scientific, and the theories that this belief entails can neither prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, then this is more productive than talking about a religious point of view. Bullshit. Both of you, don't talk about things that you cannot prove, or disprove in the eyes of others. Keep the discussion out of that sector of the galaxy.

Before you get your name engraved on that high and mighty pedestal of yours, please explain to me what would be accomplished if we pursued that line of conversation.

Nothing, Nada, Zip. Neither of you, and I for sure won't, stop going back and forth about that topic. It's safer for this topic, and more respectful for the forum in none of us get another topic locked because we cannot control ourselves. Dig? Also, this pedestal will never have my name on it, as I will never be deserving of the title: "High and mighty."

I think your reading comprehension has failed you.

No, it hasn't. I know very much why you asked that. Which is why I am avoiding it entirely.

 

[Phoenix Goddess]

No, it hasn't. I know very much why you asked that. Which is why I am avoiding it entirely.

If you were going to avoid something entirely... why post?

 

[Urza]

I think your reading comprehension has failed you.
No, it hasn't. I know very much why you asked that. Which is why I am avoiding it entirely.

This line in particular I think you skipped over:
QUOTE

There is truly nothing productive that can come of that discussion.

Which is what I said before you got all huffy, and what you're saying, if I understand you correctly.

 

[Ace Gunman]

Folks, keep it on topic. You are now have a separate, relatively self-contained discussion about the semantics of who should and should not post what and why.

 

[Nathan Drake]

Ignoring your continuing lack of respect for the English language...
Once again, I must reiterate your statement to clarify that it is accurate:

So if there's nothing after, there is no memory of the people who still remember you. There is no memory of what you have accomplished, the differences you've made. The meaning your life had.

What's the point in persevering, if no matter what action you take, in the end you are rewarded with literally nothing?

I have no lack of respect for the English language. You just need to learn not to take things such as word definitions at face value. The English language is a tricky thing that can't be defined by a book.

I should have been more clear originally, my apologies. When I say there is nothing after, I am saying that is purely for the person who committed suicide. Believing you leave no impression in the slightest is just a silly thought in itself.

Who is to say you will be rewarded with literally nothing? You won't know what could be until you tough it out to an inevitable ending.

------------------------------------------------

Holy crap Ace, that is a lot to take in. Your views are pretty much mine, just far, far better iterated with personal experience that I lack. Personal experience I hope to never have.

There are moments of weakness where you have no choice but to accept it, and I should consider that it isn't always an act of selfishness. What you present are some very extreme situations, though I do know they happen, some more often than we would like to think. You present special cases though where there is no possibility of things ever getting better. The person has literally lost every possible thing in life that any person could consider is worth living for. There, "manning up," reconsidering things, those just aren't options. At that point, I don't even think it can be considered selfish if what you are doing may raise the quality of life for others (ie: The family thing where the person would just have that feeling of utter hopelessness that would be irreparable in any situation, thus, they would more than likely know at that point that they would only serve as an obstacle for others while knowing that they are as such).

The selfishness is something that I realize sits on both sides of the debate. Where I feel it ends though is where the person not only doesn't want the person to kill them self, but for the reason that they want to help to get them back on their feet. There is still that selfishness present, but with an ulterior motive that is hard to perceive as such.

I suppose there are instances where suicide is truly the only way. I will still never support it, but I can understand it in such extreme circumstances. I suppose Superman said it best. Incredible words that should be taken to heart. I have to wonder what possible experiences the writer(s) of that issue may have had to generate such a caption.

 

[Sterling]

If you were going to avoid something entirely... why post?
Because he's pushing it.

I think your reading comprehension has failed you.
No, it hasn't. I know very much why you asked that. Which is why I am avoiding it entirely.

This line in particular I think you skipped over:
QUOTE

There is truly nothing productive that can come of that discussion.

Which is what I said before you got all huffy, and what you're saying, if I understand you correctly.

No, I saw that. There are two meanings one can draw from that. 1) Sensitive subject that causes much controversy and brings about an inconclusive result when discussed. 2) Subject you don't believe (maybe not totally) in and wish to draw out others to comment and defend their stance on said subject. I'll admit, I may have jumped a little farther on in the conversation that I should have, but I know what you meant by it.

 

[Urza]

Who is to say you will be rewarded with literally nothing? You won't know what could be until you tough it out to an inevitable ending.

That's not what I said, it's what you said.

 

[Nathan Drake]

Who is to say you will be rewarded with literally nothing? You won't know what could be until you tough it out to an inevitable ending.

That's not what I said, it's what you said.

Twisting my words won't serve well. You also didn't specify exactly what I said. I have said multiple times that you should try to strive to leave something behind to be remembered by, but when you die, your body and being are gone. Dieing doesn't instantly erase memories of you.

Now, exactly what part of that is confusing? I feel like you are just out of things to say really. :3

 

[Phoenix Goddess]

On-topic:

Views are clashing with others and it's making this thread seem more heated than it should be.
No one's changing their view, so what's the point of trying to change others to see it your way?
It's best to ponder on what's being said here. However, there's no point in going back and forth, back and forth if you won't even see where others are coming from.

 

[Sterling]

On-topic:

Views are clashing with others and it's making this thread seem more heated than it should be.
No one's changing their view, so what's the point of trying to change others to see it your way?
It's best to ponder on what's being said here. However, there's no point in going back and forth, back and forth if you won't even see where others are coming from.

I just wanted the discussion to be directed away from that topic entirely. For the good of an entirely legitimate topic. Especially since there are quite a few people on the temp who have things they can and should share. Who knows, it could make someone's life feel better.

 

[Urza]

Who is to say you will be rewarded with literally nothing? You won't know what could be until you tough it out to an inevitable ending.
That's not what I said, it's what you said.

Twisting my words won't serve well. You also didn't specify exactly what I said. I have said multiple times that you should try to strive to leave something behind to be remembered by, but when you die, your body and being are gone. Dieing doesn't instantly erase memories of you.

Now, exactly what part of that is confusing? I feel like you are just out of things to say really. :3

I will now quote this line for the second time:
QUOTE

I personally believe there is nothing after. You're worm food, you're just feeding the soil.

 

[Nathan Drake]

I've just stated my views, had them challenged, and have attempted to reinforce them the best I could.

In the end, it is just kind of a debate, and the nature of debates is going back and forth attempting to present new information each time to counter the point presented.
Of course, I don't even remember exactly what the OP wanted to know anymore, and I'm too lazy to reference the first post.

@Urza: As I have said many times, there is nothing after. If you commit suicide, you are just worm food. Others will still remember you though. At the very least you can attempt to leave a memory behind that others can remember you by. In a way, you aren't truly gone as the memory remains, but you as a being are gone. You no longer have any say in what people think of you. Can what people think of you become worm food?

Short answer, no. More clear? Less clear?

 

[Urza]

I've just stated my views, had them challenged, and have attempted to reinforce them the best I could.

In the end, it is just kind of a debate, and the nature of debates is going back and forth attempting to present new information each time to counter the point presented.

Of course, I don't even remember exactly what the OP wanted to know anymore, and I'm too lazy to reference the first post.

I accept your concession.

 

[Nathan Drake]

I've just stated my views, had them challenged, and have attempted to reinforce them the best I could.

In the end, it is just kind of a debate, and the nature of debates is going back and forth attempting to present new information each time to counter the point presented.

Of course, I don't even remember exactly what the OP wanted to know anymore, and I'm too lazy to reference the first post.

I accept your concession.

Psh, you wish. You just posted prematurely before seeing the edit. To be fair, you haven't actually put forth a contradicting point for about the last page and a half towards what I've said. If it were to end as is, I would technically find you to have conceded.

I wonder if the OP has enough info to write a paper now. Suicide is just so broad and controversial though. I would never write a paper on it.