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Trump allegedly indicted in a Georgia 2020 subversion probe

TomSwitch

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Then you shouldn't spout nonsense, both medical or political.
Resort to personal attack again? Not able to speak reason? I pardon you yet again.

Vivek Ramaswamy looks good to me. Whether he can beat Trump to get nominated is the question, I think if he do get nominated he will become president.
 
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Dark_Ansem

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Resort to personal attack again? Not able to speak reason? I pardon you yet again.
I dare you to justify that ridiculous statatement. Tell me how paracetamol is a poison, go on.

Vivek Ramaswamy looks good to me. Whether he can beat Trump to get nominated is the question, I think if he do get nominated he will become president
Obviously you'd love a fascist candidate who wants to restrict voting rights. Do you like slavery too?
 

TomSwitch

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I dare you to justify that ridiculous statatement. Tell me how paracetamol is a poison, go on.


Obviously you'd love a fascist candidate who wants to restrict voting rights. Do you like slavery too?
1693330333731.png

Key facts​


  • It's dangerous to take more than the recommended dose of paracetamol.
  • Paracetamol overdose can damage your liver and cause death.
  • Always follow the directions on the packet when using paracetamol.
I doubt you would put up an argument how Vivek Ramaswamy is a fascist. Concerning voting rights all I hear is he advocate requiring voter ID.
 
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  • It's dangerous to take more than the recommended dose of paracetamol.
  • Paracetamol overdose can damage your liver and cause death.
This is true of pretty much everything, including water. In the 2000s, a woman almost died for having drank too much water to win a radio prize. Are you saying water is a poison too?

Concerning voting rights all I hear is he advocate requiring voter ID.
Unsurpsingly you are lying.
 

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I’ve read an interesting article and I thought I’d share it here - it’s a more in-depth dive into how the 14th Amendment applies to Donald Trump’s potential Presidential run in its entirety, rather than Section 3 in isolation.

https://www.aei.org/op-eds/why-twisting-the-14th-amendment-to-get-trump-wont-hold-up-in-court/

The conclusion is that disqualifying him without a guilty verdict that unequivocally states he orchestrated or participated in an insurrection is premature. It would run afoul of the Due Process clause which is not only a part of the 5th, but it is restated in the 14th, the very same Amendment that’s supposed to disqualify him. So far the only official verdict regarding any such charges was the second impeachment in which Trump was acquitted.

He also mentions that in order to satisfy the requirements of the Constitution and Due Process, the provision would have to be enforced by way of Section 5 which specifies Congress as the body responsible for such a determination, by way of legislation. He recommends that a tribunal could be established to make such a finding. This makes sense as in my mind, disqualifying someone from running without a guilty verdict is indeed bypassing the clause entirely, it is a limitation of one’s liberty based on hearsay rather than due process of law. An accusation is not enough to find some guilty, it must be evidenced and it must stand up to scrutiny upon appeal.

Allowing the disqualification theory to stand without also adhering to Due Process and executing the procedure correctly, in accordance to the Constitution, would cause further turmoil in future elections, as it would allow any state to disqualify any candidate based on nothing. This, in turn, would grant individual states the power to overturn elections at will - they would have that option at multiple stages of the process. That doesn’t seem sensible to me, but that’s the precedent it would set.

John Yoo is a guest research fellow at AEI specialising in International and Constitutional law, Emanuel S. Heller Professor of Law at the University of California, Berkeley, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel, former General Counsel for the Senate Judiciary Committee and an advisor on the National Board for Education Sciences. He famously advised Mike Pence in 2020 that he had no constitutional authority to interfere with the certification of the election results. Seems like an authority on the subject, the contents of the article ring true in my mind.
 

Dark_Ansem

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I’ve read an interesting article and I thought I’d share it here - it’s a more in-depth dive into how the 14th Amendment applies to Donald Trump’s potential Presidential run in its entirety, rather than Section 3 in isolation.

https://www.aei.org/op-eds/why-twisting-the-14th-amendment-to-get-trump-wont-hold-up-in-court/

The conclusion is that disqualifying him without a guilty verdict that unequivocally states he orchestrated or participated in an insurrection is premature. It would run afoul of the Due Process clause which is not only a part of the 5th, but it is restated in the 14th, the very same Amendment that’s supposed to disqualify him. So far the only official verdict regarding any such charges was the second impeachment in which Trump was acquitted.

He also mentions that in order to satisfy the requirements of the Constitution and Due Process, the provision would have to be enforced by way of Section 5 which specifies Congress as the body responsible for such a determination, by way of legislation. He recommends that a tribunal could be established to make such a finding. This makes sense as in my mind, disqualifying someone from running without a guilty verdict is indeed bypassing the clause entirely, it is a limitation of one’s liberty based on hearsay rather than due process of law. An accusation is not enough to find some guilty, it must be evidenced and it must stand up to scrutiny upon appeal.

Allowing the disqualification theory to stand without also adhering to Due Process and executing the Article correctly would cause further turmoil in future elections, as it would allow any state to disqualify any candidate based on nothing. This, in turn, would grant individual states the power to overturn elections at will - they would have that option at multiple stages of the process. That doesn’t seem sensible to me, but that’s the precedent it would set.

John Yoo is a guest research fellow at AEI specialising in International and Constitutional law, Emanuel S. Heller Professor of Law at the University of California, Berkeley, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General for the Office of Legal Counsel, former General Counsel for the Senate Judiciary Committee and an advisor on the National Board for Education Sciences. He famously advised Mike Pence in 2020 that he had no constitutional authority to interfere with the certification of the election results. Seems like an authority on the subject, the contents of the article ring true in my mind.
Aren't these part of the same claque who advocated for Iraq war and who completely missed the 2008 recession and in general climate change denialists?

Even so, a massive step up from usual sources.
 
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Foxi4

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Aren't these part of the same claque who advocated for Iraq war and who completely missed the 2008 recession and in general climate change denialists?

Even so, a massive step up from usual sources.
”I don’t like your source” is never a valid form of criticism. Either one can engage in debate and disprove an argument or they cannot - who said it is immaterial. I’m only mentioning that he’s an educated constitutional lawyer and law professor with a history of working in government to establish that he’s a subject matter expert - his points would be equally valid if uttered by anybody else.
 

Dark_Ansem

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”I don’t like your source” is never a valid form of criticism. Either one can engage in debate and disprove an argument or they cannot - who said it is immaterial. I’m only mentioning that he’s an educated constitutional lawyer and law professor with a history of working in government to establish that he’s a subject matter expert - his points would be equally valid if uttered by anybody else.
It's not about liking - it's about gross errors in judgement made in the past. Who says something is *not* immaterial, due to vested interests and warped perspectives. At any rate, I was talking about the entity, not John Yoo himself.

And his points "may" be valid if uttered by anybody else, as unlikely as it may be. As of now, he's a lonely voice.
 
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Foxi4

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It's not about liking - it's about gross errors in judgement made in the past. Who says something is *not* immaterial, due to vested interests and warped perspectives. At any rate, I was talking about the entity, not John Yoo himself.

And his points "may" be valid if uttered by anybody else, as unlikely as it may be. As of now, he's a lonely voice.
The Constitution is a publicly available document that can be read by anyone, including both of us, right now.
Section 3

No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

(…)

Section 5

The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

https://constitution.congress.gov/constitution/amendment-14/
This is not written in some form of archaic English that would require an afternoon with a dictionary to interpret. A person can be disqualified for participating in an insurrection, rebellion or giving aid to enemies of the state, but that hasn’t been established via due process of law - the disqualification theory assumes that it is self-evident when it’s not. How can it be self-evident when these things are federal crimes? If those crimes were in fact committed, you would expect the DOJ, Congress or both to step in, but neither has. Without a guilty verdict, you are reversing the burden of proof - a candidate would have to prove that they’re *not* guilty of any random accusation, which is asinine. Moreover, Section 5 of the Amendment puts the responsibility of enforcement squarely on Congress. Furthermore, the same Amendment also empowers Congress to remove this restriction from anyone formerly barred from running via a 2/3rds vote, so there can be no confusion as to which body is supposed to make this determination overall - it’s Congress. The sections of the 14th Amendment are not divorced from each other.
 
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”I don’t like your source” is never a valid form of criticism. Either one can engage in debate and disprove an argument or they cannot - who said it is immaterial. I’m only mentioning that he’s an educated constitutional lawyer and law professor with a history of working in government to establish that he’s a subject matter expert - his points would be equally valid if uttered by anybody else.
Yoo has a history of being one of the key architects of the consolidation and abuse of executive power in the G.W. Bush administration. It is not surprising that his interpretation would further that autocratic goal. Moreover, Republicans had zero regard for the law or due legal process when they refused to impeach Trump for clearly impeachable acts. Such notions are only meaningfully binding when political actors abide by law and democratic norms, behavior which has been antithetical to GOP political goals for decades now. They preach law and order whilst hypocritically undermining and flouting the law and democratic norms whenever it serves their Machiavellian aims. So, it shouldn't be surprising that critical thinkers view such interpretations as merely another exercise in conservative apologetics/motivated reasoning. Believers can, and do, rationalize, be they religious or political ideologues.
 
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Such notions are only meaningfully binding when political actors abide by law and democratic norms, behavior which has been antithetical to GOP political goals for decades now.
The law is always binding, particularly the Constitution which is the bedrock of all law in the land. If you think your opposition is breaking the law, there are avenues for recourse as established in law. You don’t get to break it based solely on spite.
And you know full well that is not what I was talking about. What I was talking about was the purely personal interpretation of the constitution you provided.
It’s a verbatim reading of the text, there’s not much room for personal interpretation. Some terms may need to be defined, perhaps (and Yoo does that based on previous court cases), but once again, we’re not dealing with an archaic text, it can be understood plainly as-is.
 
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The Constitution is a publicly available document that can be read by anyone, including both of us, right now.
This is not written in some form of archaic English that would require an afternoon with a dictionary to interpret. A person can be disqualified for participating in an insurrection, rebellion or giving aid to enemies of the state, but that hasn’t been established via due process of law - the disqualification theory assumes that it is self-evident when it’s not. How can it be self-evident when these things are federal crimes? If those crimes were in fact committed, you would expect the DOJ, Congress or both to step in, but neither has. Without a guilty verdict, you are reversing the burden of proof - a candidate would have to prove that they’re *not* guilty of any random accusation, which is asinine. Moreover, Section 5 of the Amendment puts the responsibility of enforcement squarely on Congress. Furthermore, the same Amendment also empowers Congress to remove this restriction from anyone formerly barred from running via a 2/3rds vote, so there can be no confusion as to which body is supposed to make this determination overall - it’s Congress. The sections of the 14th Amendment are not divorced from each other.
Something like 30-40% of the American population has drunk the Trump Kool-Aid. As such, every indictment, every conviction, every violation of the constitution, only emboldens them and fortifies their support for Dear Leader. Getting a conviction for the highest crimes is difficult when jury pools will inevitably have some jurors who are unswayed by evidence, rule of law, and rational argument. The first victim of the Trump administration was the truth, followed by sustained corrosive attacks on democratic norms and institutions, and the appointment of Federalist, Trumpian, judges throughout the American legal system, including the Supreme Court. It's whimsy to talk about how things are supposed to work when we all know how Trump and his sycophants have intentionally corrupted the system and the critical thinking capacity of the minds of their followers, replacing logic, evidence, and the rule of law with authoritarianism, conspiracy theories, motivated reasoning, and steaming mountains of BS.
 
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Something like 30-40% of the American population has drunk the Trump Kool-Aid. As such, every indictment, every conviction, every violation of the constitution, only emboldens them and fortifies their support for Dear Leader. Getting a conviction for the highest crimes is difficult when jury pools will inevitably have some jurors who are unswayed by evidence, rule of law, and rational argument. The first victim of the Trump administration was the truth, followed by sustained corrosive attacks on democratic norms and institutions, and the appointment of Federalist, Trumpian, judges throughout the American legal system, including the Supreme Court. It's whimsy to talk about how things are supposed to work when we all know how Trump and his sycophants have intentionally corrupted the system and the critical thinking capacity of the minds of their followers, replacing logic, evidence, and the rule of law with authoritarianism, conspiracy theories, motivated reasoning, and steaming mountains of BS.
The government only exists with the consent of the governed. You don’t get to bypass due process and the rule of law because you think the electorate is too stupid to have an opinion. Moreover, Yoo touches upon this point in his article, which you should read before bringing up any further criticism because it might’ve already been addressed in the text. You don’t have to treat his opinion piece as gospel, but he raises good points that are consistent with the text of the Constitution and with legal precedent. What you’re suggesting without actually saying it verges on dictatorship. You cannot ignore established rules and institutions because of some kind of subjective belief that they’re “corrupt” which you cannot possibly substantiate. If the law says that this estimation is up to Congress then it should be up to Congress. If the issue develops to such a degree that a constitutional conflict occurs, it will have to be ruled upon in the Supreme Court, establishing constitutionality is its sole function. I very much doubt that it would find that states can unilaterally disqualify candidates based on accusations alone, anyone can be accused of anything at any time. It is through due process that we arrive at a reasonable conclusion, so it stands to reason that a verdict would solidify and better inform such decisions.
 
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The problem is that all branches of the the US government are political actors, often with goals that are not aimed anywhere near forwarding the cause of true justice. As presently constituted, the SCOTUS majority is more of a activist rightwing political body than a dispassionately legal one (remember blind lady justice...? they don't), and is currently seeking to shape future generations with their politically/religiously motivated aims. We've seen how they use motivated reasoning to selectively take on cases and make rulings that are not entirely consistent with the constitution... never mind that the US constitution is just a historical document, with strengths and weaknesses, written by biased humans to suit certain ideological and political ends, not some sort of infallible guide to true justice. My trust in the US government and institutions is near an all-time low, in large part due to Trumpian ideology, though G.W. Bush definitely pushed things in that general direction with the Patriot Act, and today's Republicans keep trying to corrupt it further with almost every step.
 

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The conclusion is that disqualifying him without a guilty verdict that unequivocally states he orchestrated or participated in an insurrection is premature.
So you're saying plan JFK then? The majority of voters on both sides would support that. I'm sure there are republicans that already have plans in motion.

But let's just watch it play out in court first, it could save his life.

Trump shouldn't be allowed to get away with all the crimes he has committed, just because he keeps throwing lawyers and voters at it.
 
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Xzi

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The conclusion is that disqualifying him without a guilty verdict that unequivocally states he orchestrated or participated in an insurrection is premature.
Good thing it's an opinion article, and smarter/more qualified people on both sides of the aisle disagree with that assessment. The 14th does not require a conviction because of the specificity and severity of the crimes it applies to.
 
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Good thing it's an opinion article, and smarter/more qualified people on both sides of the aisle disagree with that assessment. The 14th does not require a conviction because of the specificity and severity of the crimes it applies to.

all three branches of the federal government have described the January 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol as an “insurrection.



No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.



He was there when the insurrection assembled & he gave a speech to them, which aided and comforted them. https://www.jstor.org/stable/787437?seq=6

It seems that the easiest thing is to ask Congress whether to remove this particular disability of Trump, though it's a pity nobody can do anything about his other disabilities.
 
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Dark_Ansem

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Good thing it's an opinion article, and smarter/more qualified people on both sides of the aisle disagree with that assessment. The 14th does not require a conviction because of the specificity and severity of the crimes it applies to.
Are you disagreeing with non-archaic English written plain as paper???
 
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