The paradigm of False Dichotomy - If you aren't 100% in, you are an enemy. How can we break this?

[RichardTheKing]

Another example: if you are at all critical of feminism, you are labelled as "sexist" and "misogynistic".

Bleargh.

 

[smf]

That wasn't your point. You pulled a 180 after failing at being pedantic. It's recorded. Anybody can read this. You work at Micrsoft for PR or something? Must be so stressful, as you try to push "Microsoft cares" unironically. Nice try at gaslighting, loser.

I think you misunderstood my point.

"Microsoft" as in the people behind the company, do care.

I'll rate this as a 2/10 troll. Must try harder.

Another example: if you are at all critical of feminism, you are labelled as "sexist" and "misogynistic".

The mistake you are making there is trying to make logical points to women when their emotions are ruling their decision making.

I was involved in a conversation recently where it came up that women can tend to get help in situations that men can't. A woman complained saying she had always looked after herself, she found it offensive that she (at least claimed to have) chosen to always work hard.

 

[tabzer]

I think you misunderstood my point.

"Microsoft" as in the people behind the company, do care.

Lol, which was besides the point that Viri was making. It looked like you were waiting to find some awkward segue to say "Microsoft cares", and it's hilarious. At best it could have looked like you were saying,"man, I don't know about people who work at banks, but people who work at Microsoft are good people".

That's why I called you cute. Are you friends with Zuck?

 

[smf]

At best it could have looked like you were saying,"man, I don't know about people who work at banks, but people who work at Microsoft are good people".

I don't know how you are defining whether someone is good or not.

I was merely pointing out that there are people at Microsoft who appear to care about pride.

What you've been wittering on about is anyone's guess.

 

[tabzer]

I don't know how you are defining whether someone is good or not.

A little late to make that the contention. Gives the appearance of desperation. Do you want to rewind the conversation?

I was merely pointing out that there are people at Microsoft who appear to care about pride.

I know. And I was merely mocking you missing the point.

What you've been wittering on about is anyone's guess.

*Your guess. Maybe someone else's guess. For now, it's just you.

(I know you are special and I love you.)

 

[smf]

A little late to make that the contention. Gives the appearance of desperation. Do you want to rewind the conversation?

I don't, you were the one that bought it up. I was questioning how you were going to quantify that. Are you ok? Do keep up.

I know. And I was merely mocking you missing the point.

Except I didn't miss the point, you stumbled in without understanding the conversation, trolled, now want to redefine the conversation because you don't like to lose. By now you should be used to it.

*Your guess. Maybe someone else's guess. For now, it's just you.

I'm throwing it out there, because your ramblings don't really have anything to do with the point being discussed.

(I know you are special and I love you.)

I literally don't care

 

[tabzer]

I don't know how you are defining whether someone is good or not.

I literally used it in the same fashion you applied the "microsoft cares" logic. It's not hard to trace the conversation.

I don't, you were the one that bought it up.

You are digging back into the conversation looking for a technical fault, desperate to try to save the face you already lost.

Except I didn't miss the point, you stumbled in without understanding the conversation, trolled, now want to redefine the conversation because you don't like to lose. By now you should be used to it.

You trying to shed insight about how Microsoft might have feelings was you missing the point of Viri's words. I am not redefining anything.

I'm throwing it out there, because your ramblings don't really have anything to do with the point being discussed.

We are discussing the point that nobody in this thread confused "Microsoft" the company with white-collar workers, until you. The point of corporations being superficial and panderers completely passed through that void between your ears and your reflex was to latch onto Microsoft like an infant.

I literally don't care

Your actions speak the contrary.

 

[titan_tim]

View attachment 381808

This sums up the GOP in 2023. I understand that this is an inconvenient truth but that's too bad.

This really does hit the nail on the head for what is wrong with the US!

At what point did an entire group of people think "Yeah, I'm ok with this because he's on my side"? The Nazi's are the basic symbol of evil around the world, and now they can causally show their flag in the US of all places?! They can't even get away with that in Germany! They'd get their teeth knocked in! They still exist there, but they're relegated to the shadows, there they belong.

Not all people who are right wing are Nazi's, but when ALL the Nazi's are on your side, you have to do some introspection.

 

[tabzer]

This really does hit the nail on the head for what is wrong with the US!

At what point did an entire group of people think "Yeah, I'm ok with this because he's on my side"? The Nazi's are the basic symbol of evil around the world, and now they can causally show their flag in the US of all places?! They can't even get away with that in Germany! They'd get their teeth knocked in! They still exist there, but they're relegated to the shadows, there they belong.

Not all people who are right wing are Nazi's, but when ALL the Nazi's are on your side, you have to do some introspection.

Germany lost the war, not Nazis. The US adopted the Nazis via Operation Paperclip. From my perspective, it's not a partisan issue.

 

[titan_tim]

Germany lost the war, not Nazis. The US adopted the Nazis via Operation Paperclip. From my perspective, it's not a partisan issue.

Wait, you're saying that the Nazi's didn't lose? They've been outlawed completely there. If you have a flag, you'll be arrested.

As for their scientists, if THAT'S what you're trying to take as acceptance of their ideology, then it's nonsense. All those scientists had to leave their baggage at the door. If a murderer has the cure for cancer, the world should use that person for the cure. It's not an acceptance of who they are.

You're right, it SHOULDN'T be a partisan issue. But here we are, with a political party having Nazi flags showing up all over, with little to no pushback.

 

[tabzer]

Wait, you're saying that the Nazi's didn't lose? They've been outlawed completely there. If you have a flag, you'll be arrested.

The ideology and many proponents have migrated through the facilitation of countries like the US. At best you can argue that Nazis lost territory in exchange for something else.

As for their scientists, if THAT'S what you're trying to take as acceptance of their ideology, then it's nonsense. All those scientists had to leave their baggage at the door. If a murderer has the cure for cancer, the world should use that person for the cure. It's not an acceptance of who they are.

I don't believe that's close to what actually happened. That sounds righteous though.

You're right, it SHOULDN'T be a partisan issue. But here we are, with a political party having Nazi flags showing up all over, with little to no pushback.

If it is, I don't think it's genuine.

"All over" seems hyperbole. Personally I've only ever seen Nazi flags pictured and shared on the media, whose locations are usually out of reach, and if accompanied by someone, they are conveniently unidentifiable.

I just don't see how a group of people who are trying to follow a cult of freedom are just going to toss their only virtue and act like a real nazi to a hypothetical nazi, possibly escalating violence and criminal charges along the process. The nazi flags are bait. There's no way that a nazi flag benefits a Trump rally, and whoever is displaying that flag knows that. Sometimes I wonder if the complaint you are making is just rooted in disappointment that people aren't falling for the trap, or us talking about it is the trap.

 

[titan_tim]

The ideology and many proponents have migrated through the facilitation of countries like the US. At best you can argue that Nazis lost territory in exchange for something else.

You don't seem to understand the level of distain the world has for Naziism. For the entire world to uniformly come together and say that they denounce a movement is quite literally the worst thing that could happen to them. They didn't lose territory, they were scattered to the four winds. In most locations, you will get berated or beaten for that level of idiocy.

I don't believe that's close to what actually happened.

They wanted the scientists in order to further the nuclear program. What else did you think they wanted them for? Tea and a nice conversation?

"All over" seems hyperbole. Personally I've only ever seen Nazi flags pictured and shared on the media, whose locations are usually out of reach, and if accompanied by someone, they are conveniently unidentifiable.

Unfortunately, your experiences are anecdotal and not the reality of the world we live in. Do you not remember the tiki torch dinguses walking down the street in Charlottesville chanting "The Jews will not replace us"? Would you say that that place is out of reach, or those people were unidentifiable?

Then there's outside the Turning point USA summit

Outside Disney World in Florida

If you want to say that they were unidentifiable as a cop-out, then you're just deflecting from the issue at hand, and not accepting that one political party has an identity problem. Say what you want about the left having gender issues, but I'd rather have that than the Nazis.

 

[tabzer]

You don't seem to understand the level of distain the world has for Naziism. For the entire world to uniformly come together and say that they denounce a movement is quite literally the worst thing that could happen to them. They didn't lose territory, they were scattered to the four winds. In most locations, you will get berated or beaten for that level of idiocy.

Disdain is besides the point. I'm talking about what it is considered to be civil in America.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Party_of_America_v._Village_of_Skokie

Do you not remember the tiki torch dinguses walking down the street in Charlottesville chanting "The Jews will not replace us"?

Lol. Here's an update about that.

https://theintercept.com/2021/11/03/lincoln-project-charlottesville-glenn-youngkin/

Kind of proving my point that it isn't genuine, eh?

If you want to say that they were unidentifiable as a cop-out, then you're just deflecting from the issue at hand, and not accepting that one political party has an identity problem.

It's bait dude. I'm not even going to accept the passive suggestion that there is a political party without an identity problem.

Say what you want about the left having gender issues, but I'd rather have that than the Nazis.

That's funny, but it is a bit of a strawman.

 

[titan_tim]

Disdain is besides the point. I'm talking about what it is considered to be civil in America.

First amendment rights are not an acceptance of ideologies. People are allowed to say whatever they want, and not be persecuted by the government for it. Those people who marched in Charlottesville were allowed to do so, but some of them still got fired from their jobs, because that isn't protected.

Lol. Here's an update about that.

https://theintercept.com/2021/11/03/lincoln-project-charlottesville-glenn-youngkin/

Kind of proving my point that it isn't genuine, eh?

How is that an proving your point? The tiki torches are a symbol of far right neo-nazi's, and the Lincoln project used it as symbolism. That doesn't mean that the march in Charlottesville didn't happen and that they weren't real Nazi's. It happened, and no amount of attempting to rewrite history will change that.

That's funny, but it is a bit of a strawman.

That's not what a strawman is. I'm merely pointing out what either side see's as the worst in each other.

In general the right sees the left LGBTQ movement as the worst part of the left (At least, judging by the constant culture war garbage that spews into Fox news).
In general the left sees the racists/bigots/and Nazi's as the worst part of the right.

One group is attempting to have their people live a more free life, whereas the other is in open opposition to those people receiving those rights. I'm sorry, but there really is no debate here on what should be accepted in a free country.

 

[tabzer]

First amendment rights are not an acceptance of ideologies. People are allowed to say whatever they want, and not be persecuted by the government for it. Those people who marched in Charlottesville were allowed to do so, but some of them still got fired from their jobs, because that isn't protected.

Right, allowing somebody to exercise their constitutional right of free speech is not the same as accepting their ideologies. I’m glad we agree.

You might be surprised to find out that you agree with a lot more of the people who “allow” those “Nazis” to act on their liberties. They are trying to “embrace” (follow?) the law. Lol.

Businesses, especially rich ones, will express more cavalier and try to punish people for exercising their constitutional rights, especially when they are caught in leveraging their public image. I wouldn’t use businesses as moral authorities, but the situation makes sense to me. However, I’m not sure how SCOTUS actually feels about it. Are there any cases by scotus that sanctify the right for a business to fire someone for exercising their right to speech?

How is that an proving your point? The tiki torches are a symbol of far right neo-nazi's, and the Lincoln project used it as symbolism. That doesn't mean that the march in Charlottesville didn't happen and that they weren't real Nazi's. It happened, and no amount of attempting to rewrite history will change that.

It’s literally government propaganda, a false flag soft-balled as “a stunt that went wrong” by the faithful media. It’s terrorism, and it was propagated by Democrats in order to make Republicans look bad. I don’t know what to tell you, but you just got done telling me that it’s a real problem and it’s only one side. If you are arguing that the government is a real problem, then I agree.

That's not what a strawman is. I'm merely pointing out what either side see's as the worst in each other.

I said it’s a “bit” of a strawman because it assumes that “if you aren’t left, then you must be right”. It wasn’t a direct accusation, which allowed me to see the humor, but I do not accept those terms.

 

[smf]

It’s literally government propaganda, a false flag soft-balled as “a stunt that went wrong” by the faithful media. It’s terrorism, and it was propagated by Democrats in order to make Republicans look bad.

So you're saying these were all democrats?

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/12/us/white-nationalists-tiki-torch-march-trnd/index.html

 

[titan_tim]

You might be surprised to find out that you agree with a lot more of the people who “allow” those “Nazis” to act on their liberties. They are trying to “embrace” (follow?) the law. Lol.

Well, yes I agree with people who allow them to act on their liberties (Of free speech). Unfortunately for them, that's where their rights end. If they want to act on their ideologies instead of merely spout them, they will be met with resistance, which is how it should be. It's called the paradox of tolerance. Absolute tolerance can not apply to the intolerant. Which is why a lot of those tiki morons apparently lost their jobs when they were identified.

Businesses, especially rich ones, will express more cavalier and try to punish people for exercising their constitutional rights, especially when they are caught in leveraging their public image. I wouldn’t use businesses as moral authorities, but the situation makes sense to me. However, I’m not sure how SCOTUS actually feels about it. Are there any cases by scotus that sanctify the right for a business to fire someone for exercising their right to speech?

I'm sure you've been told this before, however the right to free speech only applies to reprisal from the government. Businesses are allowed to fire anyone who doesn't line up with their own held beliefs. If someone goes up to their Jewish boss, and calls them a "Dirty Jew", they'll be fired on the spot. No court trials necessary. If the person is marching with Nazi flags and says "The Jews will not replace us", the Jewish boss can fire him just as quickly. No trial necessary once again. It's not a first amendment rights issue.

It’s literally government propaganda, a false flag soft-balled as “a stunt that went wrong” by the faithful media. It’s terrorism, and it was propagated by Democrats in order to make Republicans look bad. I don’t know what to tell you, but you just got done telling me that it’s a real problem and it’s only one side. If you are arguing that the government is a real problem, then I agree.

First, the Lincoln project are not the government. Second, the group is made up completely of Republicans, not Democrats. Third, a false flag would be if the Lincoln project were trying to keep it a secret. They did not. They have done an excellent job in the last few years using their right wing attack prowess to take on the maga crowd, and they've done it proudly. You don't seem to understand what they did with that stunt, but it's fine if the meaning went over your head.

I said it’s a “bit” of a strawman because it assumes that “if you aren’t left, then you must be right”. It wasn’t a direct accusation, which allowed me to see the humor, but I do not accept those terms.

You're right, I have no idea what political leaning you have. Although that isn't a strawman, but more of a false dichotomy. That being said, if you want to help normalize the issue of neo-nazi's being a common fixture within the right wing, then you're part of the problem.

Post automatically merged: Jul 11, 2023

So you're saying these were all democrats?

https://edition.cnn.com/2017/08/12/us/white-nationalists-tiki-torch-march-trnd/index.html

It's just him trying to muddy the water, and attempt to help the right skirt responsibility by creating even the slightest sliver of deniability. Unfortunately for him, that ship sailed a looooong time ago.

 

[tabzer]

Well, yes I agree with people who allow them to act on their liberties (Of free speech). Unfortunately for them, that's where their rights end. If they want to act on their ideologies instead of merely spout them, they will be met with resistance, which is how it should be.

Great, but we weren’t talking about Nazis acting out on their ideologies in Trump rallies.

I'm sure you've been told this before, however the right to free speech only applies to reprisal from the government. Businesses are allowed to fire anyone who doesn't line up with their own held beliefs. If someone goes up to their Jewish boss, and calls them a "Dirty Jew", they'll be fired on the spot. No court trials necessary. If the person is marching with Nazi flags and says "The Jews will not replace us", the Jewish boss can fire him just as quickly. No trial necessary once again. It's not a first amendment rights issue.

I am aware that there are some states, like NY, that have “at-will employment,” meaning that an employer can fire you for being gay and just say that they didn’t want to keep you. Also, challenging these decisions are elective (privilege?), so I was sincerely interested in more information.

First, the Lincoln project are not the government. Second, the group is made up completely of Republicans, not Democrats. Third, a false flag would be if the Lincoln project were trying to keep it a secret. They did not. They have done an excellent job in the last few years using their right wing attack prowess to take on the maga crowd, and they've done it proudly. You don't seem to understand what they did with that stunt, but it's fine if the meaning went over your head.

Are you suggesting that a trump rally that allows people to pretend to be Nazis without jumping them is evidence that they support Nazi ideologies, but when a Democrat employs real Nazis to terrorize the neighborhood, it’s just,”lol, look what the Republicans made me do”?

Maybe you are a Bri*ish saboteur.

You're right, I have no idea what political leaning you have. Although that isn't a strawman, but more of a false dichotomy. That being said, if you want to help normalize the issue of neo-nazi's being a common fixture within the right wing, then you're part of the problem.

The “bit” part was intended to communicate that I didn’t have the appropriate word at the front of my mind. Aren't you the one who wants to help normalize the issue of neo-Nazi's being the common fixture within the right wing? I was arguing that it's fake bullshit.

It's just him trying to muddy the water, and attempt to help the right skirt responsibility by creating even the slightest sliver of deniability. Unfortunately for him, that ship sailed a looooong time ago.

You think a party (or "side") is salvageable, not me. Either you are embarrassed or you aren't paying attention.

You are offended by the fact that both sides are dirty and using nazis to play their games. Good. I think it is offensive, too. I'm not wrong by pointing it out. It's big part of why Nazis continue to exist.

 

[titan_tim]

Great, but we weren’t talking about Nazis acting out on their ideologies in Trump rallies.

No, we're talking about the acceptance of them within that party. Everywhere they pop up, they have swastika flags, and Trump flags. They just keep popping up without being denounced outright. Remember that whole "Stand back and stand by"? Yeah. Not the kind of repudiation you should expect to see.

Are you suggesting that a trump rally that allows people to pretend to be Nazis without jumping them is evidence that they support Nazi ideologies, but when a Democrat employs real Nazis to terrorize the neighborhood, it’s just,”lol, look what the Republicans made me do”?

Maybe you are a Bri*ish saboteur.

Yes a Trump rally SHOULD kick them out. They're within their rights to do so, as it's a private venue. Not kicking them out is acceptance. Even if they were FAKE Nazis (Which they aren't), they should be kicked out as well from that private venue. No questions asked. You keep going back to the Lincoln project thing, which you should know isn't the same thing. They were making a mockery of the current state of the GOP because they should be. When people see Tiki torches, they think right wing Nazi's. It's the reality of things today.

Also, not sure why you would treat the word British as a bad word. I'm sure you have your reasons.

Aren't you the one who wants to help normalize the issue of neo-Nazi's being the common fixture within the right wing? I was arguing that it's fake bullshit.

Denying reality isn't good for your mental state. Because there is no other way to see what you're currently doing. Muddying the waters and deflection is your final defense.

You are offended by the fact that both sides are dirty and using nazis to play their games. Good. I think it is offensive, too. I'm not wrong by pointing it out. It's big part of why Nazis continue to exist.

I'm not offended that both sides are playing dirty. I'm offended that one side is so desperate for votes that they'll placate to anyone, no matter how vile they are.

 

[tabzer]

No, we're talking about the acceptance of them within that party. Everywhere they pop up, they have swastika flags, and Trump flags. They just keep popping up without being denounced outright. Remember that whole "Stand back and stand by"? Yeah. Not the kind of repudiation you should expect to see.

It is understood that people want you to associate Nazis with Trump. It is understood that you want to associate Trump with Nazis. I don't know if the fact that Trump has denounced white supremacy matters to you, or if your emotions are leading your argument.

Yes a Trump rally SHOULD kick them out. They're within their rights to do so, as it's a private venue. Not kicking them out is acceptance. Even if they were FAKE Nazis (Which they aren't), they should be kicked out as well from that private venue. No questions asked.

Is this a persistent issue at his private rallies? Seems like you are tossing a red herring. Either way, I can't imagine Trump interrupting his heroic speeches about enshrining the constitution just to draw ire to the fashion of Nazis. I'd imagine that they'd have to interrupt him first.

You keep going back to the Lincoln project thing, which you should know isn't the same thing. They were making a mockery of the current state of the GOP because they should be.

Democrats let rats loose in the city to prove that the GOP is letting rats run loose in the city. This is stupid. They "attempted" to make a mockery but became the menace.

If we follow through with your logic, the people who visit trump rallies with swastikas are just there to draw attention to the problem that they exist.

When people see Tiki torches, they think right wing Nazi's. It's the reality of things today.

I disagree. That may exactly be the experience you have. But if you are really living in Japan, then you are just soaking it up from the internet.

Also, not sure why you would treat the word British as a bad word. I'm sure you have your reasons.

Lol, sorry. "Bri'ish".

I don't know the proper etiquette of dropping the t.

Denying reality isn't good for your mental state. Because there is no other way to see what you're currently doing. Muddying the waters and deflection is your final defense.

I was pretty clear about rejecting the two party solution, and I'm not buying this "Trump is Hitler, you should vote democrat" campaign.

I'm not offended that both sides are playing dirty. I'm offended that one side is so desperate for votes that they'll placate to anyone, no matter how vile they are.

There you go again. "One side".