The paradigm of False Dichotomy - If you aren't 100% in, you are an enemy. How can we break this?

[titan_tim]

It is understood that people want you to associate Nazis with Trump. It is understood that you want to associate Trump with Nazis. I don't know if the fact that Trump has denounced white supremacy matters to you, or if your emotions are leading your argument.

.....

There you go again. "One side".

Sigh.... I really don't have the energy to make you see the reality of the situation, and don't want to split the conversation into pieces again. The facts of the matter are:

1. The VAST majority (If not all) neo-nazi's and white supremacists are far right wing.
2. Neo-nazi's and white supremacists are much more comfortable showing themselves in society and making their political desires known by going to right wing rallies and marches.
3. The right wing has handled them with kids gloves in order to get their votes
4. Once again, the people who did that stunt that offended you so much are not the democrats. The Lincoln project is right wing.

Tiki torches are now a symbol for those people. As a group, they organized to get those torches and had everyone use them in their march. It's the symbol they wanted to be remembered by. That's how symbols work. To say otherwise is like saying that rainbow flags don't make people think of the LBGTQ movement.

Political leanings are on a line scale. In a line, there are only two sides. The different parties placate to different portions of that line. The democrats pander to the center and left, the republicans pander to the right and far right, and the libertarians get what they can in the center. So if it makes you feel any better when I talk about an offending side, I mean any party that panders to the side where all the nazi's are.

 

[Xzi]

Trump had a copy of Mein Kampf on his bedside table for years according to his wife. The strategy of discrediting any criticism as "fake news" originated with Hitler, as did the concept of the enemy being simultaneously strong and weak to suit your needs at the moment. Then there's the whole "we are all domestic terrorists" thing at CPAC, which summarizes the GOP under Trump nicely.

Anyone not associating Trump with white supremacy and fascism by now is doing it because they implicitly support those things in part or in whole, and they want to keep things on the DL, but unfortunately for them he's less subtle than a bull in a China shop.

 

[tabzer]

1. The VAST majority (If not all) neo-nazi's and white supremacists are far right wing.
2. Neo-nazi's and white supremacists are much more comfortable showing themselves in society and making their political desires known by going to right wing rallies and marches.

Something isn't bad because a Nazi likes it. Bad people and good people can want the same thing.

3. The right wing has handled them with kids gloves in order to get their votes

I am wondering what you are referring to handling them with kids gloves. Do they do Q&A with their representatives and offer concessions?

4. Once again, the people who did that stunt that offended you so much are not the democrats. The Lincoln project is right wing.

Acting at the behest of Democrats and anti-Trumper "Republican" strategists to create a false narrative.

Tiki torches are now a symbol for those people. As a group, they organized to get those torches and had everyone use them in their march. It's the symbol they wanted to be remembered by. That's how symbols work. To say otherwise is like saying that rainbow flags don't make people think of the LBGTQ movement.

Symbols that depict things other than what they visually represent are based on agreements between people. They may think it represents them, but I don't. Neither does anyone I know. Since we don't know anybody from the Lincoln Project, and we don't know anything meaningful about their impact on the world, it's not as potent as you want it to be. It's not normal to think about Right wing Nazis when you see a tiki torch. It's not normal to be preoccupied with thoughts about right wing nazis in general. If you knew about one that lived near you, what would you do?

Political leanings are on a line scale. In a line, there are only two sides. The different parties placate to different portions of that line. The democrats pander to the center and left, the republicans pander to the right and far right, and the libertarians get what they can in the center. So if it makes you feel any better when I talk about an offending side, I mean any party that panders to the side where all the nazi's are.

The linear scale works great for America. You can only choose one of two directions.

Where do I begin with the faults of the linear scale, let's ask chatGPT.
While the linear political scale can provide a basic framework for understanding political leanings, it has several faults and limitations. Here are some of the key shortcomings of the linear political scale:

1. Oversimplification: The linear scale reduces complex political ideologies into a simplified left-right spectrum. It fails to capture the multidimensional nature of political beliefs and the diversity of opinions within each category.
2. Limited scope: The linear scale primarily focuses on economic and social positions, neglecting other important aspects such as cultural, environmental, or foreign policy stances. It overlooks the nuances and complexities of political ideologies.
3. Binary categorization: The linear scale often presents political ideologies as binary opposites, where one is positioned as the opposite of the other. However, political beliefs exist on a continuum and cannot always be neatly categorized as strictly left or right.
4. Lack of inclusivity: The linear scale may exclude or marginalize political ideologies that do not fit within the traditional left-right framework. It may not adequately represent alternative perspectives, third-party movements, or emerging ideologies.
5. Ignoring centrism and moderation: The linear scale tends to focus on the extremes of left and right, often neglecting centrist or moderate positions. It fails to acknowledge political ideologies that advocate for compromise or positions that are not easily classified as purely left or right.
6. Cultural and contextual variations: The linear scale does not account for cultural, regional, or historical differences in political ideologies. Political beliefs and positions can vary significantly across different societies, making it difficult to universally apply a linear scale.
7. Neglecting intersectionality: The linear scale often overlooks the intersectionality of political beliefs, where individuals may hold a combination of views from different parts of the spectrum. It fails to capture the complexity and diversity of people's political leanings.

Overall, while the linear political scale can serve as a starting point for understanding political ideologies, it is important to recognize its limitations and seek more nuanced frameworks that better represent the diverse and complex nature of political beliefs.

 

[titan_tim]

Something isn't bad because a Nazi likes it. Bad people and good people can want the same thing.

And you talk about ME overly simplifying the political spectrum of the US....
We're not talking about ice cream here. We're talking about a political movement which:
- Vilifies minorities
- Attacks the free press
- Engages in stochastic terrorism and dog whistles
- Has constantly failed to denounce neo-nazi's and white supremacists when it mattered. "Stand down and stand by". "There were very fine people on both sides"

For you to need Trump to come out directly and say "I LOVE NAZI'S!" before you accept that reality is just ridiculous. Trump will continue with the dog whistles in order to keep them at a distance. In the meantime, the nazi's will remain happy that they're feeling legitimized.

I am wondering what you are referring to handling them with kids gloves. Do they do Q&A with their representatives and offer concessions?

As I said before, the constant dog whistles and vilification of foreigners is just the start.
He also reorganized a department which focused on domestic terrorism to focus more on Islamic terrorism. I'm sure they just loved that.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/1...-risk-from-right-wing-extremism-experts-fear/

There was also the infamous meeting with Nick Fuentes, which further helped legitimize those people.


Most politicians if they saw this, they'd come out right away and say they want nothing to do with those people.

Acting at the behest of Democrats and anti-Trumper "Republican" strategists to create a false narrative.

Yah, no. They're definitely anti-Trumpers. That's for sure. But they're independent of the Democrats, no matter how much you seem to want them to be.

Symbols that depict things other than what they visually represent are based on agreements between people.

That's just silly. Did you know the the Tiki brand CEO released a statement because of it?

“TIKI Brand is not associated in any way with the events that took place in Charlottesville and are deeply saddened and disappointed, We do not support their message or the use of our products in this way. Our products are designed to enhance backyard gatherings and to help family and friends connect with each other at home in their yard.”

Quite funny that a torch company CEO does a better job of saying white supremacists suck more than the President of the US.

The linear scale works great for America. You can only choose one of two directions.

Which is why I used it.

 

[smf]

I can't imagine Trump interrupting his heroic speeches

I'm sorry, that is just too ridiculous for words.

 

[MDP]

There was also the infamous meeting with Nick Fuentes, which further helped legitimize those people.

Trump said he didn't know him

We're not talking about ice cream here. We're talking about a political movement which:
- Vilifies minorities
- Attacks the free press
- Engages in stochastic terrorism and dog whistles
- Has constantly failed to denounce neo-nazi's and white supremacists when it mattered. "Stand down and stand by". "There were very fine people on both sides"

Fake news, all lies by the Democrat
owned Chinese media

For you to need Trump to come out directly and say "I LOVE NAZI'S!" before you accept that reality is just ridiculous.

what about the leftists SJWs who forced vaccines on us? How about the groomers and pedohiles that is the lgbtq who are in control over the government and need to be put down?

 

[smf]

Trump said he didn't know him

Trump says a lot of things.

 

[tabzer]

- Vilifies minorities

Day 1, the moment Trump said "their/they're rapists" I saw it as bait. When the media ("press" and SM) decided to take the pedantry to the primary focus, I had the feeling that Trump was going to win. Instead of focusing on border security, a known issue previously acknowledged by both sides, the primary stage of debate was about what insensitivity people thought they heard.

- Attacks the free press

I dislike "the free press" and I think he helped bring a lot of problems to light. Especially considering the overreach demonstrated "during the pandemic".

- Engages in stochastic terrorism

Lol.

and dog whistles

Like?

- Has constantly failed to denounce neo-nazi's and white supremacists when it mattered. "Stand down and stand by". "There were very fine people on both sides"

"When it mattered" should be in fine-print, because its function is to shift the goal-post. Are those the examples of "dog whistles"? Treading conspiracy theory. I love the expression that there are fine people on both sides. I don't see how that should offend you.

Maybe you think that if you were in Germany during the Nazi preoccupation, you'd fancy yourself as a hero for the history books.

As I said before, the constant dog whistles and vilification of foreigners is just the start.
He also reorganized a department which focused on domestic terrorism to focus more on Islamic terrorism. I'm sure they just loved that.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/1...-risk-from-right-wing-extremism-experts-fear/

I don't think that was for the Nazis.

There was also the infamous meeting with Nick Fuentes, which further helped legitimize those people.


Most politicians if they saw this, they'd come out right away and say they want nothing to do with those people.

I didn't know who Nick Fuentes is, but this racist video you shared, with the assumed pretense of helping people, is completely pointless and self-defeating. I thought it was funny. Then I realized it was real. Then I thought it was hilarious. You can't tell me that you are honestly afraid of those people being able to be heard, yet spread their "gospel" by sharing their propaganda. This exchange is so weird. What exactly is your goal?

Yah, no. They're definitely anti-Trumpers. That's for sure. But they're independent of the Democrats, no matter how much you seem to want them to be.

So the Democrats visit with the Nazis who seem to want to support the Democrats to work against Trump. (How does this work in a linear political spectrum, don't ask me!) Anyway, they say, "Here's some money, do this for us."

"Okay," they say, "We'd be better off without Trump. We need to remind voters that if they vote for Trump that we are who they will be getting. A vote for Trump is a vote for us, and we don't want that!"

That's just silly. Did you know the the Tiki brand CEO released a statement because of it?

“TIKI Brand is not associated in any way with the events that took place in Charlottesville and are deeply saddened and disappointed, We do not support their message or the use of our products in this way. Our products are designed to enhance backyard gatherings and to help family and friends connect with each other at home in their yard.”

Quite funny that a torch company CEO does a better job of saying white supremacists suck more than the President of the US.

I don't know if you are talking about Biden or Trump, but Trump objectively says something more cutting:

You should probably consider what you want instead of what the Nazis want.

Which is why I used it.

Why bother posting?

 

[MDP]

Day 1, the moment Trump said "their/they're rapists" I saw it as bait. When the media ("press" and SM) decided to take the pedantry to the primary focus, I had the feeling that Trump was going to win. Instead of focusing on border security, a known issue previously acknowledged by both sides, the primary stage of debate was about what insensitivity people thought they heard.

Truth. Trump is really good at baiting the media.

So the Democrats visit with the Nazis who seem to want to support the Democrats to work against Trump. (How does this work in a linear political spectrum, don't ask me!) Anyway, they say, "Here's some money, do this for us."

Well... It's actually fine to side with Nazi's if they side with Nazi's. If anything the communists are worse

 

[titan_tim]

Trump said he didn't know him

Fake news, all lies by the Democrat
owned Chinese media


what about the leftists SJWs who forced vaccines on us? How about the groomers and pedohiles that is the lgbtq who are in control over the government and need to be put down?

Oh wow, quite the bootlicker we have here! And only 10 comments!? Proud I could help contribute to 10% of your inane comments. I won't bother with more of a comment, because it would be a waste of time. But I'll just post this here:



What I find equally interesting is your use of saying people need to be "put down". It's not a common term to use. But Trump uses it this week in his "truth" social post, and now you use it. Funny how stochastic terrorism works.

@tabzer You reading that also? Pretty clear example of how he does it. He also just doxed Obama, which caused one of his supporters to repost Trumps message containing Obama's address, and went to go attempt to murder him. So not really a "lol" moment, and more of a "wtf" moment.

Post automatically merged: Jul 13, 2023

Day 1, the moment Trump said "their/they're rapists" I saw it as bait.
...
I dislike "the free press" and I think he helped bring a lot of problems to light. Especially considering the overreach demonstrated "during the pandemic".

I.... I just don't have the energy to care about commenting about your personal insecurities.

Like?

Seriously?

I don't think that was for the Nazis.

That's the fun part! It doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the crazies think.

I didn't know who Nick Fuentes is, but this racist video you shared, with the assumed pretense of helping people, is completely pointless and self-defeating. I thought it was funny. Then I realized it was real. Then I thought it was hilarious. You can't tell me that you are honestly afraid of those people being able to be heard, yet spread their "gospel" by sharing their propaganda. This exchange is so weird. What exactly is your goal?

Again, it doesn't matter what you think/know. It's what the crazies know. And they KNOW Nick Fuentes, and felt justified.

So the video was so over the top that you thought it wasn't real? Then when you saw that it was real, you thought it was hilarious? Great to know that you don't take things seriously. Those same people marched in Charlottesville, and were then justified by having a sitting president waffle on denouncing them by saying there were "very fine people on both sides". See the pattern?

So the Democrats visit with the Nazis who seem to want to support the Democrats to work against Trump. (How does this work in a linear political spectrum, don't ask me!) Anyway, they say, "Here's some money, do this for us."

What?! When did I say that ALL right wing people are Nazi's. That's what you're trying to say that I think here, correct? I said all Nazi's are right wing. Not the other way around.

I don't know if you are talking about Biden or Trump, but Trump objectively says something more cutting:

THAT'S "cutting"? How so? He calls everyone that goes against him a podophile, thug, pervert, crack addict, dog, etc. That's not "cutting", that's just whiny and repetitive. He's threatened to sue them (the Lincoln project), then they goaded him on to do it, because they know they'd embarrass him. If you want cutting, check out some of these. They're all gold:

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/07...oln-projects-most-devastating-anti-trump-ads/

You should probably consider what you want instead of what the Nazis want.

I'm not American, so I'm not getting much. But what I WOULD like is a stable super power who doesn't have a moron still in the running for the next president. Pointing out how he's a moron is my contribution.

Why bother posting?

Because you were getting upset over me using the term "side", and I explained why it worked in the frame of the US. You even said that the line spectrum worked as a US example.

 

[tabzer]

I.... I just don't have the energy to care about commenting about your personal insecurities.

Because the real topic is the one that's important to you: "Trump is helping Nazis."

That's the fun part! It doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the crazies think.

It only matters what they think if you are interested in shaping your behavior around things they do and do not want. (Or in your case, wanting other people to shape their behavior around what the Nazis do and do not want)

Again, it doesn't matter what you think/know. It's what the crazies know. And they KNOW Nick Fuentes, and felt justified.

So the video was so over the top that you thought it wasn't real? Then when you saw that it was real, you thought it was hilarious? Great to know that you don't take things seriously. Those same people marched in Charlottesville, and were then justified by having a sitting president waffle on denouncing them by saying there were "very fine people on both sides". See the pattern?

If you took the video seriously, then you'd also notice that they blame the media for them wanting to get involved. I don't exactly know what information you are getting from that video.

I still also don't understand what you are doing with this "very fine people on both sides" point. He says in the same interview,"I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally–but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists."

Seeing as he clarified his point, relatively immediately, as in the same conversation, I don't see why you would try to be so disingenuous to argue it.

What?! When did I say that ALL right wing people are Nazi's. That's what you're trying to say that I think here, correct? I said all Nazi's are right wing. Not the other way around.

If I were to assume reality worked according to your linear chart, it's completely useless at explaining why Nazis would help Democrats get Trump to lose. I am not saying that you think all right wing people are Nazi's, but saying all Nazi's are "right wing" when some of their activities are funded by and end up serving Democrat interest; points out the inconsistency of how we understand political ties and associations.

THAT'S "cutting"? How so? He calls everyone that goes against him a podophile, thug, pervert, crack addict, dog, etc. That's not "cutting", that's just whiny and repetitive. He's threatened to sue them (the Lincoln project), then they goaded him on to do it, because they know they'd embarrass him. If you want cutting, check out some of these. They're all gold:

Are you siding with the Lincoln project over Trump?

Look, I responded to this:

That's just silly. Did you know the the Tiki brand CEO released a statement because of it?

“TIKI Brand is not associated in any way with the events that took place in Charlottesville and are deeply saddened and disappointed, We do not support their message or the use of our products in this way. Our products are designed to enhance backyard gatherings and to help family and friends connect with each other at home in their yard.”

Quite funny that a torch company CEO does a better job of saying white supremacists suck more than the President of the US.

Not only does Tiki rejecting the Tiki Torch as a symbol for "Nazis" support my claim about what makes a symbol a symbol, but Trump responding the way he did shows your "Quite funny that a torch company CEO does a better job of saying white supremacists suck more than the President of the US" to be false in this context. I don't see the point in shifting the conversation into about what other people said about Trump, that's not the point at all.

I'm not American, so I'm not getting much. But what I WOULD like is a stable super power who doesn't have a moron still in the running for the next president. Pointing out how he's a moron is my contribution.

It's hard to tell which concerns of yours are genuine or if you are just more interested in driving the narrative as a means to an end. It seems you would have me believe that you are afraid of the Nazis, Trump is a Nazi, and that he may get elected if we don't stop him. After accusing me of not taking "anything" seriously and then calling Trump a "moron", it's really difficult to get to understand you.

Because you were getting upset over me using the term "side", and I explained why it worked in the frame of the US. You even said that the line spectrum worked as a US example.

Ah you didn't see the "You can only choose one of two directions" as sarcastic (despite my consistent position about this). Charts are supposed to depict and explain reality. They aren't an authority, and the two party system is not laudable in this context... You are falling back to the chart that got us here in the first place; the type of facilitation that leads us to the problem discussed by OP.

It's actually fine to side with Nazi's if they side with Nazi's. If anything the communists are worse

I don't know if the Democrats who paid for or support the Nazi activity were actually Democrats, if we are to apply the linear spectrum. It maybe true that Communism has caused more death than Nazism and maybe society is a little biased when choosing its enemies, but to "side with someone" is different than "siding with an ideology". So, yes, it's okay to side with someone who coincidentally is a Nazi. Siding with a Nazi because you believe in Nazi ideology is the nonsense image people like @titan_tim want to associate with Trump, despite the Nazis saying "we don't want him".

We'd have to assume @titan_tim understands Nazis better than a Nazi.

 

[titan_tim]

Because the real topic is the one that's important to you: "Trump is helping Nazis."

Well, the very first comment was on that comic talking about how people on the right are complicit being seen next to white supremacists, so that's the topic I'm sticking with.

It only matters what they think if you are interested in shaping your behavior around things they do and do not want. (Or in your case, wanting other people to shape their behavior around what the Nazis do and do not want)

No, it only matters if they get so emboldened to think they can get into power again. History has shown that must be avoided at all costs.

If you took the video seriously, then you'd also notice that they blame the media for them wanting to get involved. I don't exactly know what information you are getting from that video.

People doing nazi salutes and saying "Heil Trump" doesn't get across the fact that the neo nazi's see him as their next Hitler? I'm sorry, but you can't really downplay such a blatant symbolic gesture as that.

Here's a different video with an interview with that same neo-nazi where he explicitly says that Trump energized them, and is helping them influence others (I put the timer to that point, but the whole thing is very eye-opening)

If I were to assume reality worked according to your linear chart, it's completely useless at explaining at why Nazis would help Democrats get Trump to lose. I am not saying that you think all right wing people are Nazi's, but saying all Nazi's are "right wing" when some of their activities are funded by and end up serving Democrat interest; points out the inconsistency of how we understand political ties and associations.

Wait, you think that some nazi's are funded by and end up serving democrats? What?! I'm sorry, but you've lost the plot. How are they funded by democrats?

Are you siding with the Lincoln project over Trump?

Well yes, I think I've made that very clear. Despite my distain for Trump, I'm pretty centrist. I love collecting money, I don't enjoy taxes. I believe in the free market (But to a point of competition). I believe that we need a social safety net to help people in need as well. As a Canadian, the fact that the US doesn't have universal health care is a crime. I can have conversations with liberal people and conservative people on policy. But I can't have a conversation with people who only want to get into politics to make other people's lives worse in order to make themselves feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Not only does Tiki rejecting the Tiki Torch as a symbol for "Nazis" support my claim about what makes a symbol a symbol

No, the CEO feared for the reputation of his own product and had to come out and denounce them. It's a torch company, that saw that people were making the connection between the two, and wanted it to stop. Sorry, but the symbolism stuck.

It's hard to tell which concerns of yours are genuine or if you are just more interested in driving the narrative as a means to an end.

Yes, I'm driving the narrative on an emulation site in order to influence millions. It is objective reality that far right extremism is on the rise around the world. US politics has been my choice of drug since Bush Jr. I hate to see the GOP devolve into what it has become today. It's equally hard to see a large portion of the population become complete zombies when presented with evidence.

You are falling back to the chart that got us here in the first place; the type of facilitation that leads us to the problem discussed by OP.

But I'm not. If anything, I do the opposite. The thread is about how if you're not 100% in, then you're the enemy. I believe in fiscal responsibility. I believe in the right to bear arms (Just not unfettered). I believe in welfare, but with proper incentives to get people to work.

But now in the republican party, if you don't support Trump, you're a RINO. If you don't support guns in the hands of every teacher, you're a socialist. If you want to have health care for all, you're a communist. It's an environment of all or nothing, which is damaging.

 

[tabzer]

Well, the very first comment was on that comic talking about how people on the right are complicit being seen next to white supremacists, so that's the topic I'm sticking with.

Someone standing next to a potential proponent of genocide is not the same as being complicit. You can play hero inside your mind all day, but you have no demonstratable objection.

No, it only matters if they get so emboldened to think they can get into power again. History has shown that must be avoided at all costs.

So you must make choices for yourself, based on what does and does not "embolden nazis"? That's close enough for the point I was trying to make. You should also avoid communism at all costs and communists are emboldened by the left. Are you seeing how this dichotomy doesn't work? Focusing on the things you don't want instead of the things you do want, lead you into becoming the thing that you don't want to become. (The obsession that leads the hero to become the villain.)

Example: Losing control of a vehicle. Do you focus on that tree that threatens to end your livelihood, or do you focus on the path that keeps you alive?

For your situation though, not being an American, I can understand why you would think that the threat of America becoming communist is preferrable to it becoming a fascist state. One, apparently, is a more immediate threat to you, personally. I'd be careful in this estimation, considering how reliant Canada is on the US. It's difficult to tell, considering these circumstances, which polar extreme poses more immediate of a threat.

People doing nazi salutes and saying "Heil Trump" doesn't get across the fact that the neo nazi's see him as their next Hitler? I'm sorry, but you can't really downplay such a blatant symbolic gesture as that.

If the Lincoln Project is composed of Nazis, and the Lincoln Project is anti-Trump, I need to understand how you rationalize "Heil Trump" existing as a symbolic gesture within the ranks of Lincoln Project.

Here's a different video with an interview with that same neo-nazi where he explicitly says that Trump energized them, and is helping them influence others (I put the timer to that point, but the whole thing is very eye-opening)

I thought I was clear that I wasn't interested in this propaganda. The point that media response inspired them is true according to that video. Now you are employing this Nazi's argument to argue both sides of the case. If you like to employ Nazis... maybe you aren't being helpful in getting rid of them.

Wait, you think that some nazi's are funded by and end up serving democrats? What?! I'm sorry, but you've lost the plot. How are they funded by democrats?

Yes. Democrats donate money to them. They try to hurt Trump. That is how they are funded by, and serve, the democrats. Even your own relevance depends on Nazis, for without them, you have no platform. Sometimes you seem capable of understanding the logic, but then sometimes I wonder if you are engaging in "stochastic terrorism", lol.

Well yes, I think I've made that very clear. Despite my distain for Trump, I'm pretty centrist. I love collecting money, I don't enjoy taxes. I believe in the free market (But to a point of competition). I believe that we need a social safety net to help people in need as well. As a Canadian, the fact that the US doesn't have universal health care is a crime. I can have conversations with liberal people and conservative people on policy. But I can't have a conversation with people who only want to get into politics to make other people's lives worse in order to make themselves feel warm and fuzzy inside.

(Disdain)

I think forcing everyone to pay for health insurance is a crime, so maybe we disagree on that point.

No, the CEO feared for the reputation of his own product and had to come out and denounce them. It's a torch company, that saw that people were making the connection between the two, and wanted it to stop. Sorry, but the symbolism stuck.

It stuck with you, and anyone else who is obsessed with "Keeping Up With the Müller's". Your club can keep it real, but everyone I know isn't interested.

Yes, I'm driving the narrative on an emulation site in order to influence millions. It is objective reality that far right extremism is on the rise around the world. US politics has been my choice of drug since Bush Jr. I hate to see the GOP devolve into what it has become today. It's equally hard to see a large portion of the population become complete zombies when presented with evidence.

Thank you for demonstrating a proper strawman. I knew you'd come through.

But I'm not. If anything, I do the opposite. The thread is about how if you're not 100% in, then you're the enemy. I believe in fiscal responsibility. I believe in the right to bear arms (Just not unfettered). I believe in welfare, but with proper incentives to get people to work.

But now in the republican party, if you don't support Trump, you're a RINO. If you don't support guns in the hands of every teacher, you're a socialist. If you want to have health care for all, you're a communist. It's an environment of all or nothing, which is damaging.

It's a two party system. The Republicans didn't create this. The process depended on two sides, perpetuating each other as a threat to survival. (The structure determined the result.)

 

[Deleted member 559230]

You'all be writing books. LOL.

 

[tabzer]

If I see anyone of you quoting me for any benefit, I'll be suing you. I'm sure my lawyers can find a way to translate your fleeting giddiness to hard coin.

 

[titan_tim]

Someone standing next to a potential proponent of genocide is not the same as being complicit. You can play hero inside your mind all day, but you have no demonstratable objection.

Thank you for demonstrating a proper strawman. I knew you'd come through.

Jesus, and you say I use strawmen. Standing next to a terrible person isn't being complicit. Standing next to someone who's waving around a banner that says "GENOCIDE IS THE ANSWER!" without telling them to f--- off is being complicit. You see the difference?

How was me explaining how my concerns are genuine (which you weren't sure about) a strawman?

So you must make choices for yourself, based on what does and does not "embolden nazis"?

My morals and beliefs in life are the antithesis of what they believe. The vast majority of the world lives with the belief that everyone just wants to enjoy their lives without others making their lives worse. We've seen what happens when they have a seat at the table in history.

So now that you compare the left to communists (Which I'm surprised you don't see as the bait that it is), how is the left trying to control the means of production? If you went with socialist, it would be a slight bit more close to reality, but communist? That's just reaching. * eye roll*

If the Lincoln Project is composed of Nazis, and the Lincoln Project is anti-Trump, I need to understand how you rationalize "Heil Trump" existing as a symbolic gesture within the ranks of Lincoln Project.

I'm confused.... do you think that the video I put up of people saying "Heil Trump" ARE the Lincoln Project? Because that's the only way I can interpret what you're trying to say.

Yes. Democrats donate money to them (Nazis). They try to hurt Trump. That is how they are funded by, and serve, the democrats.

Gonna need some evidence for that instead of bold-faced assertions like that. Are you talking about the Lincoln project, who you seem to think are Nazis?

I think forcing everyone to pay for health insurance is a crime, so maybe we disagree on that point.

If healthcare was affordable, I'd be more with you there.

It stuck with you, and anyone else who is obsessed with "Keeping Up With the Müller's".

Guess we'll just have to wait for the next "unite the right" march to see if they make a return Although you'd probably just waffle saying it was a coincidence.

It's a two party system. The Republicans didn't create this. The process depended on two sides, perpetuating each other as a threat to survival.

Who started this is a whole different conversation that will have to be left to a 10 season documentary.

 

[tabzer]

Jesus, and you say I use strawmen. Standing next to a terrible person isn't being complicit. Standing next to someone who's waving around a banner that says "GENOCIDE IS THE ANSWER!" without telling them to f--- off is being complicit. You see the difference?

How was me explaining how my concerns are genuine (which you weren't sure about) a strawman?

Like I suggested, the imagined scenarios in your head where you confront and even, hopefully, punch a Nazi are not compatible with civil law and general reality. It's great that you'd be a vigilante in such a situation, hypothetically.

My morals and beliefs in life are the antithesis of what they believe. The vast majority of the world lives with the belief that everyone just wants to enjoy their lives without others making their lives worse. We've seen what happens when they have a seat at the table in history.

So now that you compare the left to communists (Which I'm surprised you don't see as the bait that it is), how is the left trying to control the means of production? If you went with socialist, it would be a slight bit more close to reality, but communist? That's just reaching. * eye roll*

If your morals and beliefs are based on being the opposite of those you perceive as the enemy, the question is what kind of extremist you are. Not if.

I'm confused.... do you think that the video I put up of people saying "Heil Trump" ARE the Lincoln Project? Because that's the only way I can interpret what you're trying to say.

You said that the Lincoln Project were making Nazi symbols of Tiki Torches, and that threw me off. It suggested that they were the authorities. I don't know or care about the Lincoln Project, so I am going based off what you say.

Gonna need some evidence for that instead of bold-faced assertions like that. Are you talking about the Lincoln project, who you seem to think are Nazis?

I do think that anybody who suggests validation in Nazi symbolism or Nazi threats are advocating it.

If healthcare was affordable, I'd be more with you there.

That's a separate issue and shouldn't have a bearing imo.

Guess we'll just have to wait for the next "unite the right" march to see if they make a return Although you'd probably just waffle saying it was a coincidence.

I mean, if it does happen again, it would make the Tiki Torches stronger as a symbol for sympathizers and people who are afraid of them; but the relevance of the Tiki Torch as a tool of racism is probably as potent as apple pie being a masturbation device.

Who started this is a whole different conversation that will have to be left to a 10 season documentary.

It still wouldn't be enough. Triceratops won't win against T-Rex (if those are real anymore).

 

[titan_tim]

Like I suggested, the imagined scenarios in your head where you confront and even, hopefully, punch a Nazi are not compatible with civil law and general reality. It's great that you'd be a vigilante in such a situation, hypothetically.

All that statement says to me is that you'd be complacent.

In Japan, there is a far right political group (Very tiny) that likes to go around in these black vans that have big speakers that spew anti-foreigner garbage. They've been known to get violent when confronted in the past. Whenever I see them drive by I always give them the finger (As long as I'm not with my kids, who they would also hate since they're mixed race). If they were to ever stop and confront me, I'd tell them to their faces that they're pathetic. Please don't project your weakness on me.

If your morals and beliefs are based on being the opposite of those you perceive as the enemy, the question is what kind of extremist you are. Not if.

With that logic, the US were extremists when they stopped the nazis. I refer you back to the "Paradox of tolerance".

You said that the Lincoln Project were making Nazi symbols of Tiki Torches, and that threw me off. It suggested that they were the authorities. I don't know or care about the Lincoln Project, so I am going based off what you say.

Wait, YOU were the one who brought them into the conversation in the first place! You cried about them being democrats who did a stunt as fake white supremacists. If you're going to bring in a talking point, at least do some studying to make sure you even know what you're talking about!

I do think that anybody who suggests validation in Nazi symbolism or Nazi threats are advocating it.

Wrong again, sorry.

I mean, if it does happen again, it would make the Tiki Torches stronger as a symbol for sympathizers and people who are afraid of them; but the relevance of the Tiki Torch as a tool of racism is probably as potent as apple pie being a masturbation device.

Nobody said they're afraid of tiki torches. But I knew you'd waffle again.

Speaking of apple pie, would you feel comfortable eating this one?

 

[tabzer]

All that statement says to me is that you'd be complacent.

In Japan, there is a far right political group (Very tiny) that likes to go around in these black vans that have big speakers that spew anti-foreigner garbage. They've been known to get violent when confronted in the past. Whenever I see them drive by I always give them the finger (As long as I'm not with my kids, who they would also hate since they're mixed race). If they were to ever stop and confront me, I'd tell them to their faces that they're pathetic. Please don't project your weakness on me.

Part of the reason why these groups stay small is because nobody engages with them in competition and brings them publicity. You should realize that a foreigner coming into Japan and flipping off these guys communicates that you want to start a fight, further validating their message. I don't think a single Japanese person would empathize with that. You might feel justified, but you are doing everyone a disservice and I hope you change your attitude or leave. Consider learning Japanese.

Seriously, imagine bragging about going into another culture and fucking up their shit. Logan Paul a hero of yours? That is undoubtedly POS behavior.

With that logic, the US were extremists when they stopped the nazis. I refer you back to the "Paradox of tolerance".

No dude. I'm talking about creating your own identity around the notion that what a Nazi wants should be considered first.

Wait, YOU were the one who brought them into the conversation in the first place! You cried about them being democrats who did a stunt as fake white supremacists. If you're going to bring in a talking point, at least do some studying to make sure you even know what you're talking about!

You said that Tiki torches were a symbol of Nazis and that Lincoln Project was enforcing it. A search brought me to their bus stunt where a democrat sent white supremacists to demonstrate with tiki torches. I'm not updated with the latest Nazi newsletter. I don't know which is the official one.

Nobody said they're afraid of tiki torches.

That's correct, because they don't actually symbolize anything real. Quit trying to make it happen.

 

[titan_tim]

Part of the reason why these groups stay small is because nobody engages with them in competition and brings them publicity. You should realize that a foreigner coming into Japan and flipping off these guys communicates that you want to start a fight, further validating their message. I don't think a single Japanese person would empathize with that. You might feel justified, but you are doing everyone a disservice and I hope you change your attitude or leave. Consider learning Japanese.

Seriously, imagine bragging about going into another culture and fucking up their shit. Logan Paul a hero of yours? That is undoubtedly POS behavior.

Wow, you love to make assumptions about cultures you know nothing about. The Japanese people haaaaaaaaaaaate them. They're marginalized for a reason. They have their right to speech, but no serious political party would ever work with them.

Did you not hear what I said? They go around with speakers on trucks blaring anti-foreigner garbage. If someone was going around with speakers around your neighborhood saying that you're a piece of shit, would you just ignore them? Oh wait you already made it clear that you'd sit there like a limp noodle. You're a victim waiting for a bully.

俺は日本語が十分にわかるので、彼らに直接「お前は弱虫だ」と言うよ。言語の学習は、この状況とは関係じゃない。これは文化的な問題ですよ。

Your ignorance of the situation is just oooooooozing out now. I'd advise you to stop before you make more of a fool of yourself.

No dude. I'm talking about creating your own identity around the notion that what a Nazi wants should be considered first.

I don't know how I can make this more clear, "dude". All of their political ideologies are opposed to mine (I would hope to yours too). I believe people should be free to live their lives as they want. They believe the opposite. As I said, I have a mixed race family. Those people would make my family's life worse if they had the power. The war was fought so that we could put them in the rear view mirror. Anything less than absolute rejection of them is an insult to the people who fought for that freedom.

You said that Tiki torches were a symbol of Nazis and that Lincoln Project was enforcing it. A search brought me to their bus stunt where a democrat sent white supremacists to demonstrate with tiki torches. I'm not updated with the latest Nazi newsletter. I don't know which is the official one.

I never said that the Lincoln project was enforcing anything. Please stop putting words in my mouth, as you've done that a LOT. You brought up the article talking about the stunt that offended your senses, saying that they were democrats doing a false flag operation. Dunning-Kruger in da house!

That's correct, because they don't actually symbolize anything real. Quit trying to make it happen.

I see you didn't mention the symbolic apple pie. Was pretty easy to make your whole point about symbolism look foolish with a single picture.