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Discussion on modern politics

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TotalInsanity4

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BTW guys, if we hit a 140 or 150 replies or so, I'll open up a new thread. As taleweaver mentioned earlier, a lot of the people who want to join the discussion aren't able to due to the intimidating post count and how fast the discussions been.
Realistically I think that keeping one thread is fine, unless we want to go into specific issues. I'd be happy to open specific threads if you PM me the topic, though

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The main problem is the culture. It used to be that if you were on welfare, everyone knew it. The cashier looked at you weird if you paid in food stamps. There would be gossip about that person who's so poor that he's on welfare. It really motivated people to get their arses into a job.
... I fail to see how looking down on people for taking advantage of a program designed to help them does anything other than prove that you (the person looking down on) are a gigantic asshole. Trust me, I'm a cashier and I run probably at least three EBT transactions a day, and I can assure you that I don't judge any of the customers for using it - ESPECIALLY the mothers - because it's obvious that in the moment, they need the help
 
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KingVamp

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Honestly, I don't know why people would want inefficient and wasteful humans in the workplace at this point. Aside maintenance and cleaning, it not much you have to worry about with machines and they can work nearly 24/7. Work pretty much stops when a machine isn't working anyway.
 
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Which is another term for the same basic thing, it's just that the term "trickle down" has too much stigma attached since everybody figured out it was bullshit.

No, it's really, really not.

I already posted a link to information on the Laffer curve in this thread, and it suggests 70% is the optimal corporate tax rate. If that's what he's advocating then I'm all for it.

ll Holcombe & Donald Lacombe, The effect of state income taxation on per capita income growth, 32 Public Finance Review 292-312 (2004)

F. Padovano & E. Galli, E., Tax rates and economic growth in the OECD countries (1950-1990), 39 Economic Inquiry 44-57 (2001).


Christina Romer & David Romer, The macroeconomic effects of tax changes: estimates based on a new measure of fiscal shocks, 100 American Economic Review 763-801 (2010).

The Laffer Curve simply says that tax revenue and tax rate are not linear. Like if you raised taxes by 5% then tax revenue won't nessacerily decrease or increase by anything close to 5%.

According to all those papers and empirical evidence, the laffer curve is best represented like this:

Laffer-Curve-Maryland_toll.png


Which should simply mean much harsher punishments. IE if they're found to use tax havens, then they have to pay double the taxes they would've owed on that money. It's been all carrot for like the last 100 years, it's about time to use the stick some.

You really think that corporations don't have enough money to lobby for easier 'punishments'? Or that they can't cover up any potential investigations? The reason we use so much carrot is because you're trying to have a 1 on 1 melee with the equivalent of a bullet-proof bear. A stick isn't going to do much.

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Realistically I think that keeping one thread is fine, unless we want to go into specific issues. I'd be happy to open specific threads if you PM me the topic, though

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------


... I fail to see how looking down on people for taking advantage of a program designed to help them does anything other than prove that you (the person looking down on) are a gigantic asshole. Trust me, I'm a cashier and I run probably at least three EBT transactions a day, and I can assure you that I don't judge any of the customers for using it - ESPECIALLY the mothers - because it's obvious that in the moment, they need the help

I'm saying that among the people who abuse the system/are too lazy to get a job, public shame is one of the most effective punishments. We encourage and pity people who are 'down on their luck' way too much in today's modern culture, espescially single mothers.

EDIT: just wanted to clarify my position. I think that welfare is the best option in the context of public schools and public services in general. However, UBI is excellent, as you can hold people accountable for not having certain public services.
 
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Xzi

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No, it's really, really not.
Everybody knows the tales of supply-side Jesus, it's definitely the same shit economic policy with a different name.


You really think that corporations don't have enough money to lobby for easier 'punishments'? Or that they can't cover up any potential investigations? The reason we use so much carrot is because you're trying to have a 1 on 1 melee with the equivalent of a bullet-proof bear. A stick isn't going to do much.
With an elected government who does nothing but bend over backwards to appease the corporate world, of course we're not going to make much progress weaning them off the government tit. That doesn't mean there aren't leaders out there with a bit more backbone who would prefer to stand up for the working class.
 
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Everybody knows the tales of supply-side Jesus, it's definitely the same shit economic policy with a different name.

I'm not going to argue this, sorry.

With an elected government who does nothing but bend over backwards to appease the corporate world, of course we're not going to make much progress weaning them off the government tit. That doesn't mean there aren't leaders out there with a bit more backbone who would prefer to stand up for the working class.

I'm not saying there aren't leaders like that, but they're few and far between, besides, how would you even know if theyre really 'for' the working class? Pray that once they're in power they won't be corrupted or that they weren't corrupt in the first place?

No matter what, power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The more absolute the power, the more absolute the corruption.

This is an unavoidable rule of politics and life in general.
 
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SG854

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All increasing the min wage will do is fuck over those on the min wage. This is an ESTABLISHED economy fact.

https://www.creators.com/read/thomas-sowell/09/13/minimum-wage-madness
The whole minimum wage debate is ridiculous. That writer you linked Thomas Sowell his book on Basic Economics should be standard reading for everyone before they vote politically on Econ issues. And I got this information from his book.

Only 3% of workers over age 24 earn Minimum Wage. 3.6 million earned minimum wage, over half was between 16-24 yrs old, 64% of them worked part time. Politicians always talking about providing a “Living” wage (“Living” an emotional word) to support a family of 4 but most minimum wage workers are not supporting a family. Minimum wage workers have an average family income of $44,000, something thats impossible with someone only working minimum wage. 42% of minimum wage workers live with a parent or some relative. Only 15% are supporting themselves and a dependent, complete opposite view that politicians push. We are essentially trying to provide a living wage to a bunch of teenagers and young adults who are not trying to support a family.

Minimum Wage laws not only causes unemployment to rise but also a longer period that people are unemployed. This can be seen in many countries around the world. Places with no minimum wage laws have lower rates of unemployment then ones that do. Places that have government mandated benefits produces these same effects even without minimum wage laws. There are a few sites that supposedly debunks this, but they only look at businesses that survive, most close down. They are not going to ask ones that close down since they are not around anymore. So a business that survived by playing Russian Roulette doesn’t debunk that minimum wages are harmless.

U.S. Department of Labor and Workers Unions claim that wage laws don’t cause unemployment because they have a vested political, ideological, emotional and financial interest. But when you look at what actual economists say the majority in the U.S., Britain, Germany, Canada, and Switzerland say that it does cause unemployment to rise. 90% American and 85% Canadian Economists. Dozens of Studies in the Europe, Latin America, the Caribbean, Indonesia, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand shows that unemployment rises. 0 dollars essentially what people get when you raise unemployment. Not only they loose out on money, they loose out on work experience to move up the economic ladder (and the majority of people do when they get older) just to help a Bunch of teenagers who are not supporting a family get a “living” wage. Its ridiculous. They get 1 person who is over 24 on minimum wage supporting a family put him on TV just to get sympathy and votes, but this is not a majority accurate picture.
 

CallmeBerto

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Yeah, if only corporations could hire people on at $1/hour, unemployment would be 0%! Then we just need to remind those people daily how lucky they are to be getting paid anything.

That would never happen due to the fact you are paid based on the value of your labor. If company X did pay you 1 USD another company would pay you more if your labor really is worth more.
 
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Xzi

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That would never happen due to the fact you are paid based on the value of your labor. If company X did pay you 1 USD another company would pay you more if your labor really is worth more.
If the minimum wage went away, there'd be nothing stopping corporations from wage fixing. They'd all pay pretty much the same rate for the same type of labor.
 
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FAST6191

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Minimum wage is an odd one for me and in no way clear cut.

Back when I were a lad there was an old dude who used to spend Saturdays with a mate in a little hut on a town car park taking tickets and making change. Telly on there with whatever (some sport I guess) and his sandwiches. Paid a pittance really but it was nice to see and that dude really appreciated the boost from what I could tell. There are also any number of classes in society that will take something, anything and most of the time I as an employer will opt for someone more capable if I can. However it is not all codgers, cripples and carers.

At the same time working a reasonable number of hours for minimum wage (never mind the zero hours contract stuff***) pretty much nails your mobility -- want to move 3 towns over to do something else? Good luck with that one. Other side of the country (for most in the US distance wise that is about the other side of the average state).... heh, classic. Going for the living wage thing then I often find it amusing that those calling for such things simultaneously call the youth of today shiftless layabouts for not buying houses (or getting on* the property market), not having kids (an expensive hobby that) or coming the other way and decrying them not buying shit they like and thus such products being retired (my favourite probably still has to be the one I saw about fabric conditioner but enough of that, though cars form an interesting case study). The "42% of minimum wage workers live with a parent or some relative" I saw in a poster above me as I started to write this would almost seem immediately questioned with "but how many would if they could?". In discussions of employment so many that want to claim their stuff is getting it done seem so quick to ignore under employment or those that more or less gave up.
If 4 and a half times annual salary is a on the edge of risky mortgage for most (to say nothing of it being a hard one -- 25 year term on that for a vaguely realistic deposit and accordant interest rates... I would not care for it) then 4 and half times 25 grand (which is something many aspire to -- 17 is about what one might expect for the classic cashier or office drone. https://www.nursingtimesjobs.com/article/nursing-differences-in-roles-and-salaries/ if you fancy a mid tier job like nursing which these days requires fairly decent up front education. Just in case someone wants to note it being a few years ago then current bands https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2017-18 ) is 130K or so with a decent deposit (easier said than done for that one too -- if rent and council tax will take you to around the same price as mortgage then trying to save under those conditions...). That will barely get you a pot to piss in for most places, and for quite a few others may see you have to leave where you grew up** to even stand a hope. Maybe you need to get a partner (never mind that those yelling "get off my lawn" could have afforded to do it solo and probably have had a kept wife when it was their time). Housing might be a few other factors at play (the rise of buy to let, financing for not so rich people to become mini property magnates and a shrinking supply because demand far far outstrips it, to say nothing of effective limits on new supply by way of excessive regulation) but shelter is still a popular thing for people to enjoy.
Pension? Better hope national insurance is still a meaningful concept when it comes your time.
To be fair I tend to laugh at such people claiming one needs to do all that to adult but not everybody has my approach to the world. I feel for anybody trying to do classic adult in the modern world on average working stiff wages, never mind that fixed costs are also higher than they might have been (maybe you can be a functioning member of modern society without that mobile phone and broadband though). I tried it myself once -- was in a better position than many at the start, did all that was required and a bit more besides, was prepared to put in the time and effort, was prepared to make the sacrifices... still chewed me up and spat me out (or more like I pulled the cord before it got bad). Fortunately there are other ways to play if you can take being an undesirable.

*the idea of a "starter home" and moving every decade or so is odd to me. One and done is not necessarily the goal either but it almost feels like housing trying to double dip. Maybe prices will rise for just you and somewhere you can move into will somehow have stayed the same. Similarly in my token search for current prices most things in those sorts of price ranges were typically leasehold affairs.

**if you grew up in London or somewhere like Cornwall (bottom left of the UK, nice and sunny compared to most of the rest, nice beaches...) then I wish you even greater luck.

***when I saw what happens with those then the notion that the market is some kind of almost benevolent, self correcting affair... nah. Couple that with somebody that maybe got burned by loans/finance (and they push it hard and frequently ignore any kind of due diligence, thankfully the UK has not followed the US just yet into considering credit an important metric for just about everything).

I also have to note a rising tide lifts all ships so it could get to be a bit of a vicious circle. In the end I have seen people try top down economics, trickle down, bottom up.... and it is all smoke and mirrors with a lot of back handers for anybody that can or can pay someone to figure out how to game the system for them. A completely free market is a horrible master and at the same time nobody is ever going to be able to calculate an optimal solution to create a managed one (never mind predict new technologies or events that change the game -- we are already staring down the barrel of automation and a rising skills curve that probably outpaces biology). I suppose in the end I will look at the law -- it tends to have fundamental aspects that everybody agrees on, things that seem almost prescient, patches to sort an immediate problem and kick the can down the road a bit, and of course bad ideas. Such a thing seems like a reasonable plan for economics as well.
 
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Minimum wage is an odd one for me and in no way clear cut.

Back when I were a lad there was an old dude who used to spend Saturdays with a mate in a little hut on a town car park taking tickets and making change. Telly on there with whatever (some sport I guess) and his sandwiches. Paid a pittance really but it was nice to see and that dude really appreciated the boost from what I could tell. There are also any number of classes in society that will take something, anything and most of the time I as an employer will opt for someone more capable if I can. However it is not all codgers, cripples and carers.

At the same time working a reasonable number of hours for minimum wage (never mind the zero hours contract stuff***) pretty much nails your mobility -- want to move 3 towns over to do something else? Good luck with that one. Other side of the country (for most in the US distance wise that is about the other side of the average state).... heh, classic. Going for the living wage thing then I often find it amusing that those calling for such things simultaneously call the youth of today shiftless layabouts for not buying houses (or getting on* the property market), not having kids (an expensive hobby that) or coming the other way and decrying them not buying shit they like and thus such products being retired (my favourite probably still has to be the one I saw about fabric conditioner but enough of that, though cars form an interesting case study). The "42% of minimum wage workers live with a parent or some relative" I saw in a poster above me as I started to write this would almost seem immediately questioned with "but how many would if they could?". In discussions of employment so many that want to claim their stuff is getting it done seem so quick to ignore under employment or those that more or less gave up.
If 4 and a half times annual salary is a on the edge of risky mortgage for most (to say nothing of it being a hard one -- 25 year term on that for a vaguely realistic deposit and accordant interest rates... I would not care for it) then 4 and half times 25 grand (which is something many aspire to -- 17 is about what one might expect for the classic cashier or office drone. https://www.nursingtimesjobs.com/article/nursing-differences-in-roles-and-salaries/ if you fancy a mid tier job like nursing which these days requires fairly decent up front education. Just in case someone wants to note it being a few years ago then current bands https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/nhs-pay-scales-2017-18 ) is 130K or so with a decent deposit (easier said than done for that one too -- if rent and council tax will take you to around the same price as mortgage then trying to save under those conditions...). That will barely get you a pot to piss in for most places, and for quite a few others may see you have to leave where you grew up** to even stand a hope. Maybe you need to get a partner (never mind that those yelling "get off my lawn" could have afforded to do it solo and probably have had a kept wife when it was their time). Housing might be a few other factors at play (the rise of buy to let, financing for not so rich people to become mini property magnates and a shrinking supply because demand far far outstrips it, to say nothing of effective limits on new supply by way of excessive regulation) but shelter is still a popular thing for people to enjoy.
Pension? Better hope national insurance is still a meaningful concept when it comes your time.
To be fair I tend to laugh at such people claiming one needs to do all that to adult but not everybody has my approach to the world. I feel for anybody trying to do classic adult in the modern world on average working stiff wages, never mind that fixed costs are also higher than they might have been (maybe you can be a functioning member of modern society without that mobile phone and broadband though). I tried it myself once -- was in a better position than many at the start, did all that was required and a bit more besides, was prepared to put in the time and effort, was prepared to make the sacrifices... still chewed me up and spat me out (or more like I pulled the cord before it got bad). Fortunately there are other ways to play if you can take being an undesirable.

*the idea of a "starter home" and moving every decade or so is odd to me. One and done is not necessarily the goal either but it almost feels like housing trying to double dip. Maybe prices will rise for just you and somewhere you can move into will somehow have stayed the same. Similarly in my token search for current prices most things in those sorts of price ranges were typically leasehold affairs.

**if you grew up in London or somewhere like Cornwall (bottom left of the UK, nice and sunny compared to most of the rest, nice beaches...) then I wish you even greater luck.

***when I saw what happens with those then the notion that the market is some kind of almost benevolent, self correcting affair... nah. Couple that with somebody that maybe got burned by loans/finance (and they push it hard and frequently ignore any kind of due diligence, thankfully the UK has not followed the US just yet into considering credit an important metric for just about everything).

I also have to note a rising tide lifts all ships so it could get to be a bit of a vicious circle. In the end I have seen people try top down economics, trickle down, bottom up.... and it is all smoke and mirrors with a lot of back handers for anybody that can or can pay someone to figure out how to game the system for them. A completely free market is a horrible master and at the same time nobody is ever going to be able to calculate an optimal solution to create a managed one (never mind predict new technologies or events that change the game -- we are already staring down the barrel of automation and a rising skills curve that probably outpaces biology). I suppose in the end I will look at the law -- it tends to have fundamental aspects that everybody agrees on, things that seem almost prescient, patches to sort an immediate problem and kick the can down the road a bit, and of course bad ideas. Such a thing seems like a reasonable plan for economics as well.

What exactly was the point of your anecdote? It kinda wandered off midway through your post.

If the minimum wage went away, there'd be nothing stopping corporations from wage fixing. They'd all pay pretty much the same rate for the same type of labor.

That's illegal and they would be taken to court for it. Not to mention, but those types of monopolies never last due to human greed. One of those corporations is gonna fib on the deal and the whole thing goes crashing down.
 
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FAST6191

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What exactly was the point of your anecdote? It kinda wandered off midway through your post.

I thought I stayed fairly on topic for once. It was more that there were many aspects to it all (this being the discussion of minimum wage) and I am not sure any of the previously posed "solutions" had major pitfalls so I pondered some of the things mentioned, some of the things we traditionally look at members of society to do if they want to claim themselves upstanding citizens (though how much of that is worth anything any more I do not know, and frankly I am happy to see much of it die) and the implications of other things. One major aspect of that is/was buying a house so I then considered the difficulties of pulling that off on various levels of wage that some deem sufficient and adequate.
 
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I mean, by the time we're considering removing the minimum wage altogether we'd be in an absolute oligarchy where the corporations set the laws for themselves.

Based on what evidence? If anything (according to anacyclosis), we'd revert back to a tribal/kingship/dictatorship style government.
 
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Xzi

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Based on what evidence? If anything (according to anacyclosis), we'd revert back to a tribal/kingship/dictatorship style government.
Corporations are already a well-established power in the US, we're massively dependent on them. Some people wouldn't survive two weeks without Wal-Mart. And considering that corporations have been pushing a subversive government takeover for decades now, they'd be happy to skip a few steps in that process.
 
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Corporations are already a well-established power in the US, we're massively dependent on them. Some people wouldn't survive two weeks without Wal-Mart. And considering that corporations have been pushing a subversive government takeover for decades now, they'd be happy to skip a few steps in that process.

While I agree that they've been pushing for a takeover, it will never happen. It isn't just Walmart controlling half the senate. Its target, it's Apple, its Sony. There are many corporations vying for power and they each have have different company philosophies.
 

Xzi

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While I agree that they've been pushing for a takeover, it will never happen. It isn't just Walmart controlling half the senate. Its target, it's Apple, its Sony. There are many corporations vying for power and they each have have different company philosophies.
Ultimately they all worship the almighty dollar. If Republicans ever shrink government to the point it can be "drowned in a bathtub," then corporations will find plenty to agree on as our new ruling body.
 

TotalInsanity4

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Ultimately they all worship the almighty dollar. If Republicans ever shrink government to the point it can be "drowned in a bathtub," then corporations will find plenty to agree on as our new ruling body.
The Panama Papers are an excellent example of exactly this, and I'm a lil concerned by the fact that they just kind of quietly slipped away...
 
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Ultimately they all worship the almighty dollar. If Republicans ever shrink government to the point it can be "drowned in a bathtub," then corporations will find plenty to agree on as our new ruling body.

And having a big corrupt central government with tons of power is better? All a bigger government does is provide an easier springboard for corruption.
 
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