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Discussion on modern politics

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No, we really shouldn't be, but it's also not an option given who's in charge of government currently. Also it's unfortunate, but UBI will always be this "radical socialist/communist" idea to people until automation starts tangibly affecting unemployment.

Eh, overall, I think that UBI will be needed once automation hits hard. But right now it's a bad idea. We just can't afford it.

When was the last time a Republican raised the minimum wage? And the US is mostly service jobs, corporations cut down to skeleton crews years ago. There's been no benevolent meeting between megacorps where they decided to raise the median (or minimum) wage to my knowledge, either. With the recent tax cuts most corporations just bought back their own stock.

Less Taxes=More businesses=Scarcity of labor in a certain skill-field=Higher wages for people in that skill-field

On top of that, there would be a lower strain on the economy that would continue to exist, as the businesses that stay would, in theory at least, actually be paying for the public services that they were using, rather than leeching off of them while profiting off of their own product

Could you go more in depth on what you mean by leeching off of public services?
 
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TotalInsanity4

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Could you go more in depth on what you mean by leeching off of public services?
Yeah sure, a great example would be companies that do any kind of shipping over the road, whether they do it themselves or go through a postal service. When a company exploits loopholes to avoid paying taxes, they are either putting an incredible strain on the highway infrastructure without paying into the system that would allow them to be repaired or improved, or they're taking advantage of the postal service effectively without paying for it

Another great example would be water, since most production companies use it; who do you think provides the budget to lay the infrastructure that carries treated water throughout the city, and waste water out of it?
 
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Xzi

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Eh, overall, I think that UBI will be needed once automation hits hard. But right now it's a bad idea. We just can't afford it.
The only reason we can't afford it is because of the trillions we've blown on giveaways to the already-rich.

Less Taxes=More businesses
This logic doesn't follow at all. Less taxes = more money for large corporations to use to swallow up all the small businesses. Tax cuts sure as hell haven't increased competition in the ISP market.
 

TotalInsanity4

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There is no competition, because your laws are written to get rid of competition & Trump has not made it any better.

America will keep getting the bad deal that it inflicts upon itself.
I guess I don't see how that's an argument against @Xzi, if that's what you were intending. But I don't exactly know how a purely free market solution would solve that, though, considering the big ISP companies already have a stranglehold on the market
 
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Yeah sure, a great example would be companies that do any kind of shipping over the road, whether they do it themselves or go through a postal service. When a company exploits loopholes to avoid paying taxes, they are either putting an incredible strain on the highway infrastructure without paying into the system that would allow them to be repaired or improved, or they're taking advantage of the postal service effectively without paying for it

Another great example would be water, since most production companies use it; who do you think provides the budget to lay the infrastructure that carries treated water throughout the city, and waste water out of it?

Wait a second. I'm genuinely confused here. Using a road constitutes "leeching off public services?"

The only reason we can't afford it is because of the trillions we've blown on giveaways to the already-rich.

First of all, it's not "giving away money". It is proven fact that on average, lower taxes lead to higher tax revenues as long as you don't go overboard i.e. 0.5% tax rate.

Second of all, Red Herring.

This logic doesn't follow at all. Less taxes = more money for large corporations to use to swallow up all the small businesses. Tax cuts sure as hell haven't increased competition in the ISP market.

How exactly would they swallow up small businesses?

@TerribleTy27 I don't want to beat a dead horse, but you were the one in the other thread saying that Donald Trump doesn't lie (or something to that effect), right?

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/do...000-did-not-die-puerto-rico-hurricane-n909221

That's being taken out of context. If you read his full statement, you'd see he meant that the death toll wasn't as high as 3000 and that it's being exaggerated.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

"Welfare dependency". I mean, if you are down on your luck, the only other options are to depend on someone else or starve.

Agreed. The main problem with welfare in America isn't that the system itself is bad, it's just that it's been poorly implemented and it's way too easy to abuse.
 

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Automation is already taking jobs away. Hell the walmart in albert lea, mn just went from having 6 self checkouts to 12. there is only ever one living cashier after 9pm. ubi needs to happen. fuckin now. or we need to riot.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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Wait a second. I'm genuinely confused here. Using a road constitutes "leeching off public services?"
I don't see what's confusing about it. If you're putting the heaviest vehicles that put the most strain on the infrastructure on the road, then not paying taxes for the upkeep of said infrastructure, you're effectively footing the bill of damage to the rest of the public

That's being taken out of context. If you read his full statement, you'd see he meant that the death toll wasn't as high as 3000 and that it's being exaggerated.
How can you say that's out of context, did you actually read the article? His full "statement" (which is to say, two tweets) was included, one of which suggests the death toll was in the double digits? Come on, man, that's absolutely heinous, you can't just excuse that.
 
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How can you say that's out of context, did you actually read the article? His full "statement" (which is to say, two tweets) was included, one of which suggests the death toll was in the double digits? Come on, man, that's absolutely heinous, you can't just excuse that.

For the past 13 minutes I've been trying to figure out a way to say 'Trump is a serious asshole' without saying that Trump is a serious asshole.

Trump is my immortal unfailing God and you will say no such blasphemy about him

I don't see what's confusing about it. If you're putting the heaviest vehicles that put the most strain on the infrastructure on the road, then not paying taxes for the upkeep of said infrastructure, you're effectively footing the bill of damage to the rest of the public

Ahh, I get what you mean. I believe in low tax cuts, but 0% is usually where I draw the line.
 
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TotalInsanity4

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Agreed. The main problem with welfare in America isn't that the system itself is bad, it's just that it's been poorly implemented and it's way too easy to abuse.
Also, I missed this; it's 100% that the system is bad. There's no method of "weaning" someone off of welfare benefits, you either receive them, or if you go over the maximum income threshold then you don't, and you can't go more than (I believe) two years at a time on unemployment without a work-inhibiting disability. Simply put, the current system is practically designed to fuck the people who are meant to benefit from it over, then use the failure as an excuse to further cut welfare benefits because of the "dependency" that's a side effect of the specific way it's implemented. A UBI would not have anywhere near the same negative drawbacks as our current program
 
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Also, I missed this; it's 100% that the system is bad. There's no method of "weaning" someone off of welfare benefits

The main problem is the culture. It used to be that if you were on welfare, everyone knew it. The cashier looked at you weird if you paid in food stamps. There would be gossip about that person who's so poor that he's on welfare. It really motivated people to get their arses into a job.
 

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No, he did not. Nobody making below $100,000 saw jack shit in return for those cuts. GWB's cuts were far more visible for the average worker, but the stupid part was pushing for those cuts after starting two endless wars. Definitely a big contributor to the crash and recession in '08, and now we're probably looking at the same for '19 with Trump's spending habits.
To come back to this comment. No one bothered to check the Tax Revenue when ever there was Tax Cuts, which is amazing with something this important to this conversation you would think they would. The few times there was tax cuts we collected more money in taxes. Which was the whole point of tax cuts. The most the government can do is change tax rates. How people will respond to those changes is a different story. If lower tax rates makes it more expensive to place your money in tax havens then people will instead just pay their taxes here.

The tax cuts in the 1920's increased not only tax revenue but also the amount of taxes paid by the upper income brackets. The tax rate paid rose from 0% to 24%. 24% of Taxes collected with low tax rates is more then 0% collected with high tax rates. Tax cuts was never about giving more money to the rich. And Trickle Down Economics is essentially one giant straw man argument because this theory does not exist in economics. You will not find one economist that advocates for it. Its a made up theory and people are wasting their time trying to debunk a non existent theory.

It's also obvious tax cuts and tax revenue is not a linear relationship. Which is why a 0% tax rate doesn't mean increased revenue, because its 0% tax rate means no taxes collected. Which was a weird argument I heard when people try to debunk and say that lower tax rates doesn't always increase tax revenue. The point is to go as high as you can to collect as much tax as you can without going too high that people end up avoiding paying their taxes. And what tax rate works in one time will probably not work in another. A 25% tax rate working in one period will probably not work in a later period and then maybe a lower tax rate would be better especially when using tax havens becomes easier.

Its all about finding the optimal tax rate. This is something Bernie Sanders does not understand. People think that Humans are like pawns on a chess board and government can make them do whatever they want and that their policies will automatically produce what they say. They never go past that first stage and fact check anything. Its in the name Affordable Housing so that must mean houses will be affordable, right? This explains why even News Sites never checked the tax revenue, and ones that did were so surprised where this mystery increased tax revenue came from, its was like magic money coming from no where. And good luck trying to close up tax loop holes.

http://www.aei.org/publication/thomas-sowell-on-the-relationship-between-tax-rates-and-tax-revenues/
https://www.tsowell.com/images/Hoover Proof.pdf
 
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Xzi

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And Trickle Down Economics is essentially one giant straw man argument because this theory does not exist in economics. You will not find one economist that advocates for it. Its a made up theory and people are wasting their time trying to debunk a non existent theory.
What are you talking about? Republicans have been pushing trickle down since Reagan and continue to push it to this day. Economists are a different story, but it's not like Republicans listen to what economists have to say unless it's what they want to hear.

Its all about finding the optimal tax rate. This is something Bernie Sanders does not understand.
Essentially what you're advocating for here is appeasement of the corporate world, which has been going on for far too long already. We shouldn't have to "settle" on a corporate tax rate that doesn't even cover healthcare and food stamps/welfare for the employees corporations refuse to pay a living wage to. We need to simplify the tax code and close all the loopholes at the same time. Enough pretending like corporations are just going to pack up and leave one of the largest consumer nations on Earth. Even if they did, it would mean capitalism gets to work properly for once and small businesses would take their place.
 
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What are you talking about? Republicans have been pushing trickle down since Reagan and continue to push it to this day. Economists are a different story, but it's not like Republicans listen to what economists have to say unless it's what they want to hear.

Actually they advocate for supply-side economics.
Essentially what you're advocating for here is appeasement of the corporate world, which has been going on for far too long already. We shouldn't have to "settle" on a corporate tax rate that doesn't even cover healthcare and food stamps/welfare for the employees corporations refuse to pay a living wage to. We need to simplify the tax code and close all the loopholes at the same time. Enough pretending like corporations are just going to pack up and leave one of the largest consumer nations on Earth. Even if they did, it would mean capitalism gets to work properly for once and small businesses would take their place.

Umm, no. By optimal he means highest possible tax revenue and economic growth. Please look up what the laffer curve is.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Enough pretending like corporations are just going to pack up and leave one of the largest consumer nations on Earth.

He's not arguing that at all. What he is saying is that they'll just put their money in tax havens instead of paying.
 
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BTW guys, if we hit a 140 or 150 replies or so, I'll open up a new thread. As taleweaver mentioned earlier, a lot of the people who want to join the discussion aren't able to due to the intimidating post count and how fast the discussions been.
 

Xzi

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Actually they advocate for supply-side economics.
Which is another term for the same basic thing, it's just that the term "trickle down" has too much stigma attached since everybody figured out it was bullshit.

Umm, no. By optimal he means highest possible tax revenue and economic growth. Please look up what the laffer curve is.
I already posted a link to information on the Laffer curve in this thread, and it suggests 70% is the optimal corporate tax rate. If that's what he's advocating then I'm all for it.

He's not arguing that at all. What he is saying is that they'll just put their money in tax havens instead of paying.
Which should simply mean much harsher punishments. IE if they're found to use tax havens, then they have to pay double the taxes they would've owed on that money. It's been all carrot for like the last 100 years, it's about time to use the stick some.
 
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