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Why is the American voting system so flawed?

Song of storms

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Let's assume that the USA has 8 parties to run for presidency instead of two. The vote divides as it follows:

- 25%
- 24%
- 16%
- 10%
- 8%
- 7%
- 7%
- 3%


The most voted party was voted by one person out of 4. And this is only the most likely outcome. Worst case scenario, a new President could be elected with 13% of the vote. Imagine the shitstorm if Trump was voted with 13% of the votes.
 

Quantumcat

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Let's assume that the USA has 8 parties to run for presidency instead of two. The vote divides as it follows:

- 25%
- 24%
- 16%
- 10%
- 8%
- 7%
- 7%
- 3%


The most voted party was voted by one person out of 4. And this is only the most likely outcome. Worst case scenario, a new President could be elected with 13% of the vote. Imagine the shitstorm if Trump was voted with 13% of the votes.
But if you had more parties, you would have preferences, so people would get their 1st, 2nd or 3rd preference most likely.
 
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Clydefrosch

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Let's assume that the USA has 8 parties to run for presidency instead of two. The vote divides as it follows:

- 25%
- 24%
- 16%
- 10%
- 8%
- 7%
- 7%
- 3%


The most voted party was voted by one person out of 4. And this is only the most likely outcome. Worst case scenario, a new President could be elected with 13% of the vote. Imagine the shitstorm if Trump was voted with 13% of the votes.

not sure how you come to 13%. you mean if every party is voted equally? thats literally impossible.

and you'd usually have a clear favorite or two with a bunch of jill steins lagging behind.
if it was as close as 25 vs 24%, there should potentially be an additional vote, maybe.

but really, in these multiparty systems, you as the voter usually vote party anyways, while the party elects a president from their midst. sometimes, from the coalition, sometimes from the majority party but requiring support from partners etc etc.

you'd definitely never end up with a freak like trump
 
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Song of storms

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But if you had more parties, you would have preferences, so people would get their 1st, 2nd or 3rd preference most likely.
What if the three most voted parties come from different factions? Either they're willing to come to terms or they will fight for it while the country remains without a president.
The first comment of the post mentioned the Italian parliament. Funny, because that's what happened there. Ultimately, the two parties made a coalition after a lot of backpedaling from promises of both parties. So, while both received a vote of ~70% combined, they really received a lot less because of the agreements. A lot of people who voted for the 5 Stars party are upset about the leader of Lega's decisions and vice versa.
 
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Quantumcat

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What if the three most voted parties come from different factions? Either they're willing to come to terms or they will fight for it while the country remains without a president.
No, that won't happen. The preference system works so that there is eventually a majority for someone.

It works like this: everyone's first preferences are counted. Assuming there is no majority already (more than 50%), the votes where the first preference is the least popular, are scrapped and their second preference are counted instead. All the votes are counted again. If there's no majority it happens again - the votes with the least numbers are scrapped and their next preference is applied. This continues until someone has a majority.

Edit: what you said could happen I guess in countries that don't use a preference system but who do have more than two parties, but I'm sure they have other ways to work out the problem.
 
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FAST6191

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It doesn't matter what your definition of liberal is, or what the classic definition of liberal is. These people call themselves liberal, so I will address them as such.

What threats are these in the US? Liberals, for one, who are allowing the other major threat in. They want to overrun us with people who do not hold our values. That alone is an existential threat.

What about whataboutism? It isn't a disingenuous tactic. It's a tactic that shows yet another example of failed socialism. Socialism is what? Socialism is something liberals have been trying to push on America for far too long. It fails everywhere. Actually, let me rephrase that. Socialism has actually never failed. It has actually been an incredible success everywhere it has been implemented, because it is never meant to benefit the masses. A great way to know what liberals have in store for us here in America is to see what they're doing in other countries where they don't have the sort of laws that we do here preventing them from implementing their demonic bullshit.

Producing excess does not mean we have infinite resources.

Equality of opportunity. It's the same fucking thing. You can't have equality of opportunity in the sense that folks like you like to think of it. Opportunities in the job field are based, a lot of the time, on who you know. If you know the right people, you have more of an opportunity than a person who doesn't know the right folks.

If you were raised by parents with their heads screwed on properly, then you have a better chance of being intelligent enough to know that if you go to college, you should probably do so for a field that will actually net you results instead of some gender studies bullshit. You'd be smart enough, also, to think properly and logically. That alone would give you more opportunities than someone who was raised by parents who didn't give a flying fuck.

However, when thought of logically, "equality of opportunity" is something we all already fucking have. We ALL have the opportunity to make something better of oyrselves, to improve ourselves in our own unique ways. The problem is whether people take advantage of that opportunity. Some may have to overcome hurdles that other don't, but that's just natural beause not everyone is the same. Not everyone grows up in the same fucking situation. Some people might have parents who were smart, and saved up money so their kids don't have to struggle. That isn't a sign of being spoiled, it's a sign that the system fucking worked and that this kid's parents did the right thing. There ain't nothign stopping a woman from going into a stem field. Most women are just not interested in that, hence why it's male dominated. It isn't a lack of opportunity. There's nothing wrong with that either. Romance novels are female dominated. Do we see men going on about not having opportunities in the romance novel genre? No, men just don't really like that shit so we generally don't read the genre.

I do like when words mean things. Self identification may be a thing but I have not seen it here -- the no borders people I find tend to self identify as and push concepts more commonly seen in anarchist, socialist and very occasionally social democrat mindsets.

I would ponder what the shared values might be here but that might be a bit more nuance than is merited. I can't say I am worried about such things in the US -- the very thing you are decrying as having failed will see that those experiments fail and then things can carry on.

It very much is a disingenuous tactic. If you do not address the core issue brought up and instead deflect then you have not answered the issue. It may be that the thing mentioned is a non issue, and in that case demonstrate as such. An example from elsewhere may have provide something salient to compare with but again eye on the prize -- if you are not there then consider that.

I agree excess does not mean infinite, the question surely though is what can be done with it? A favourite example is when travelling around the US I found so many people that wanted to start businesses but had health insurance as a major concern and thus did not. When running around in Europe and places where it is. More small businesses is good from where I sit. The things some places had allowing people to stay on parental insurance until 25 helped a bit but that is only some -- many others get to about 40 or so and have some decent skills before wanting to branch out. That would be an example of excess being used to benefit society at large.

It is not the same thing, not at all. Maybe we need some worked examples. Classic talking points would be representation in a field/workplace/whatever and pay in said same between ethnicities/genders/whatever. I have long maintained that if you choose or choose not based upon such things you are a dick and maybe want a slap, by not doing that you provide equality of opportunity, by trying to match societal groupings (or indeed over correct for some imagined historical sleight) and attempting to ignore experience, hours worked and more I can't see it as a good thing and this would be equality of outcome. However reading the last paragraph it seems you have some understanding of the concept, just not the phrasing typically used for it (which is fine as it is something of an academic pursuit anyway and concepts is better than words), else you tried to construct a strawman for someone that agreed with you on a concept. Similarly "folks like you"... you assume much of me, a dubious thing to do.

Good parenting makes for good outcomes. It is a well observed concept and while it is far from the lifestyle for me I would happily encourage it when compared to a lot of others commonly seen. I would also agree most gender studies courses I have read have been woefully inadequate for preparing you for... anything really actually (the schools of philosophy a lot of them seem to have sprang from might not have given their students as great a knowledge of a science but damned if they could they debate properly) but that is somewhat besides the point or at least a very small part of it.
What I want is everybody that can do to get a chance to do and suffering the sins of our fathers (absent or not) is something most try to move away from, outside the US a lot of places have already managed it and are doing pretty well*. It is purely self interest on my part as well -- good people are hard to find and I have had some great ones out of some dysfunctional environments, and indeed actively search in said same (the mechanical nous of a kid who has had to fix his bike, and possibly most other things, since he was 7 else he would not have a bike tends to far exceed the one who watched fast and furious at 16 and thought it was cool). Get someone to provide the toys and breadth of opportunities for a few years and I will finish the rest.

*between this and the healthcare thing then while I know it not to be the case the US system at large feels incredibly callous.
 

TotalInsanity4

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Edit: what you said could happen I guess in countries that don't use a preference system but who do have more than two parties, but I'm sure they have other ways to work out the problem.
Indeed they do. Germany works by voting for the party, rather than an individual, and after the election then install a recognizable and well-liked politician that they think best represents party values. However, a party absolutely HAS to get a majority vote for them to win the election. Since literally no single party has any statistical chance of that happening, what they'll instead do is form a coalition with one or two other parties with similar, but not quite identical politics, and then choose a candidate fitting the combined ideals of the coalition should they win
 
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Taleweaver

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Let's assume that the USA has 8 parties to run for presidency instead of two. The vote divides as it follows:

- 25%
- 24%
- 16%
- 10%
- 8%
- 7%
- 7%
- 3%


The most voted party was voted by one person out of 4. And this is only the most likely outcome. Worst case scenario, a new President could be elected with 13% of the vote. Imagine the shitstorm if Trump was voted with 13% of the votes.
Erm...not to sound like the Devil's advocate, but as it stands only about 25% of US citizens voted for Trump. The fact that only half the people who could've voted actually showed up says something about the process.

Granted, you're not much of a republic anymore if you start dividing up the presidency, but would it be so bad to have a vice president of another party (not in this political climate, obviously...but maybe Trump would've had used more diplomacy if he knew he was going to be forced to work with everyone he competed with)? I mean...in your example, surely the presidential candidate who got 24% of the votes (on 8 parties total) certainly did SOMETHING right...right? :unsure:
 
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The reason we have this system is because people are idiots.

30% of Americans can't even name the three branches of the government. This system essentially parodys the governments own set of checks and balances.

Instead of congress, president, and Supreme Court. You have people, private interests, and government/bureaucrats.

Is it a bit immoral? Yes. But at the same time, it essentially halts the cycle of anacyclosis. Thus preserving a country of free speech and opportunity for as long as possible.

EDIT: oh crap I just necroed this didn't I.
 
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