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What do you think is more harmful to the world? Racists, or religious fanatics?

Xzi

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The rift between faith and religion has always existed, over time it has simply become more pronounced and less punishable by death to talk about. Not everybody wants a church equivalent telling them exactly what to think and believe. Individuals do not hold a religion, they hold a faith.

An individual can found a religion or a cult, but if they don't manage to recruit anyone, then that's just masturbation in either the figurative or literal sense. Their so-called "religion" would cease to be because both religions and cults require leaders, followers, and places of worship. AKA an institution in every sense of the word. Contrary to what you might currently believe, "Christianity" is a faith, "Southern Baptist" is a religion. End of story.
 
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tabzer

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The rift between faith and religion has always existed

Unsubstantiated pre-amble for soap box sermon.

over time it has simply become more pronounced and less punishable by death to talk about.

Obscure reference to an oppressing force.

Not everybody wants a church equivalent telling them exactly what to think and believe.

People are apparently forced into all of the churches and commanded on how to behave.

Individuals do not hold a religion, they hold a faith.

I think both are equally tangible.

An individual can found a religion or a cult, but if they don't manage to recruit anyone, then that's just masturbation in either the figurative or literal sense.

More stupid insights from @Xzi.

Their so-called "religion" would cease to be because both religions and cults require leaders, followers, and places of worship.

A religion can be born and die with a person.

AKA an institution in every sense of the word. End of story.

What part makes it institutional? The government part?
 
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Xzi

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Obscure reference to an oppressing force.
It's not at all "obscure," I'm literally referring to religion itself. Religion has been the most oppressive force throughout history, rivaled only by governments that also leverage the institutions of religion to their own benefit.

People are apparently forced into all of the churches and commanded on how to behave.
Were, yes. These days things are more individualistic, which is why churches are seeing record-low attendance and religions record-low membership.

I think both are equally tangible.
They aren't.

More stupid insights from @Xzi.
It's not stupid just because I used the word "masturbation," it's entirely correct whether you choose to digest the message or not.

What part makes it institutional? The government part?
Sure, if it makes it easier for you to think of a church as the "government" of a religion, knock yourself out. Churches or equivelant have always existed as a part of religion, however, so nobody's buying the argument that religion was somehow "pure" at any point in history and then later corrupted. It has always been leveraged for corrupt purposes by corrupt groups of people.
 

tabzer

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It's not at all "obscure," I'm literally referring to religion itself. Religion has been the most oppressive force throughout history, rivaled only by governments that also leverage the institutions of religion to their own benefit.

You are incapable of defining religion and unable it to differentiate non-institutional religion from institutionalized religion. Religion, by itself, isn't inherently oppressive.

Were, yes. These days things are more individualistic, which is why churches are seeing record-low attendance and religions record-low membership.

Well. If the churches were capable of forcing people into their buildings, what changed?

They aren't.

Demonstrate how one can hold a belief, a faith, an idea, a doctrine, and not a religion. You are in fuckwit territory now.

It's not stupid just because I used the word "masturbation," it's entirely correct whether you choose to digest the message or not.

It's stupid because it is both inaccurate and inapplicable. Not everyone espouses their method and religion doesn't need to be a recruit-seeking cult.

Sure, if it makes it easier for you to think of a church as the "government" of a religion, knock yourself out. Churches or equivelant have always existed as a part of religion, however, so nobody's buying the argument that religion was somehow "pure" at any point in history and then later corrupted. It has always been leveraged for corrupt purposes by corrupt groups of people.

I'm asking for clarity. This isn't clarifying.
 

Xzi

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You are incapable of defining religion and unable it to differentiate non-institutional religion from institutionalized religion.
Religion without an institution is faith. Can't keep going in this same circle forever, can we?

Well. If the churches were capable of forcing people into their buildings, what changed?
The Renaissance era, basically. That's when most things stopped being deemed heretical and/or blasphemous for no good reason.

Demonstrate how one can hold a belief, a faith, an idea, a doctrine, and not a religion.
Literally none of those things require being party to an institution except religion, no demonstration required. If you read the bible and believe/have faith in the Christian god, you're a Christian. You don't have to join a denominational church (religion) to validate that.

Not everyone espouses their method and religion doesn't need to be a recruitment seeking cult.
Espouses their method of what? Worship? It literally does not matter how you worship your god as an individual, it doesn't equate to religion. Even some of the smallest religious denominations you've still HEARD OF, which demonstrates that they go well beyond the individual and seek to spread.

I'm asking for clarity. This isn't clarifying.
I've already tried explaining in no uncertain terms, best I could do is try to put it in terms you'd better understand. Yes, a church is just as much an institution as a government, and yes, churches (or equivalent) have existed as long as religion has, it cannot exist without such institutions.
 

tabzer

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Religion without an institution is faith.
Lol, again, what's institution? Faith can exist without a program. Religion is faith with a program, even if it is an individual's. We can keep going around this circle for as long as we will, but you'll still be just as wrong.

Seems like the word "institution" is your god. You keep following it but you don't know what it means.
 
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Xzi

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Lol, again, what's institution? Faith can exist without a program. Religion is faith with a program, even if it is an individual's. We can keep going around this circle for as long as we will, but you'll still be just as wrong.

Seems like the word "institution" is your god. You keep following it but you don't know what it means.
Literally four out of the seven definitions for the word when searched encapsulate both the church and religion.

  • A custom, practice, relationship, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society.
  • One long associated with a specified place, position, or function.
  • An established organization or foundation, especially one dedicated to education, public service, or culture.
  • The building or buildings housing such an organization.

None of these things are inherently bad, just as the texts that religions are based on are not inherently bad for the most part. It's the wills of men that corrupted both the church and religion, causing religion to drift further away from the texts it was founded on. And as with every rule I understand there are exceptions: obviously Buddhism in its many forms hasn't caused even a fraction of the suffering throughout human history that Abrahamic religions have.

Regardless, more people than ever are choosing to keep the faith and toss the religion, assuming they don't just toss it all after being traumatized by it.
 

tabzer

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"Religion" is not an institution, by definition, dummy. I don't care how much you want to change the English language, but as long as the dictionary doesn't agree with you, so don't I. You can make an institution of religion, but otherwise you are putting the cart before the horse.

"A custom, practice, relationship, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society." Weren't you previously arguing that religion cannot be synonymous with culture? Thanks for the concession.
 

Xzi

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"Religion" is not an institution, by definition, dummy.
Religion REQUIRES an institution to operate through by definition, dummy.

"A custom, practice, relationship, or behavioral pattern of importance in the life of a community or society." Weren't you previously arguing that religion cannot be synonymous with culture? Thanks for the concession.
Even going by this extremely generalized definition, religion still isn't synonymous with culture, but rather "a behavioral pattern of importance" to certain cultures. Once again I posit that religion has slowly divorced itself from the texts it was based on over time, and anyone reading the unedited bible in 2023 is likely to be shunned by religion, leaving them with only their faith.
 

tabzer

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Even going by this extremely generalized definition, religion still isn't synonymous with culture, but rather "a behavioral pattern of importance" to certain cultures. Once again I posit that religion has slowly divorced itself from the texts it was based on over time, and anyone reading the unedited bible in 2023 is likely to be shunned by religion, leaving them with only their faith.

So, it's okay to use this "extremely generalized definition" to rationalize religion as synonymous with institution but not culture? Face it @Xzi, you've argued yourself into a corner.

Religion REQUIRES an institution to operate through by definition, dummy.

This is easy. I saw it on an episode on South Park. I just ask and it just answers:

Religion does not necessarily require an institution, as the practice of religion can exist in various forms and settings. At its core, religion is a set of beliefs, rituals, and values that guide an individual's understanding of the world and their place in it. While religious institutions, such as churches, mosques, temples, and synagogues, have historically played a central role in organizing and facilitating religious practices, they are not essential for the existence of religion.

Religious institutions often provide a framework for communal worship, religious education, leadership, and community support. They can offer a sense of belonging, foster religious traditions, and serve as centers for religious activities. However, individuals can practice their faith independently, outside the confines of an organized institution.

Many religious traditions and spiritual practices exist outside formal institutions. Some people engage in personal or private forms of worship, meditation, prayer, and study. Additionally, there are non-institutionalized spiritual movements, alternative religious communities, and decentralized religious groups that operate outside traditional institutional structures.

It's important to note that the significance of religious institutions may vary depending on the specific religion and cultural context. While institutions have historically been influential in shaping religious practices, beliefs, and norms, they are not inherently required for an individual to engage in religious or spiritual pursuits.
 
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Xzi

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So, it's okay to use this "extremely generalized definition" to rationalize religion as synonymous with institution but not culture? Face it @Xzi, you've argued yourself into a corner.
I can accept that religion at one time was a PART of culture, a part that's been largely replaced with faith over the long run. At no point in history was religion entirely synonymous with culture.

Religious institutions often provide a framework for communal worship, religious education, leadership, and community support. They can offer a sense of belonging, foster religious traditions, and serve as centers for religious activities. However, individuals can practice their faith independently, outside the confines of an organized institution.
I do hope you realize you just conceded the entire argument. I'm in full agreement with this statement.
 

tabzer

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I can accept that religion at one time was a PART of culture, a part that's been largely replaced with faith over the long run. At no point in history was religion entirely synonymous with culture.

Nobody believes you.

I do hope you realize you just conceded the entire argument. I'm in full agreement with this statement.

Lol, you are being pathetic. The part you are quoting is literally referring to "religious institutions". I'm convinced that you know you are wrong.
 

Delerious

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Religion REQUIRES an institution to operate through by definition, dummy.

Eh, I don't think so. While religion generally does follow a set doctrine, I think you are basing the definition on what's generally become accepted as a more modern meaning of the word. That doctrine, however, doesn't necessarily have to come from a formally established religion, let alone an institutionalized one.

For example, say I lived in an era where Mormonism is no longer a widely practiced religion (I use this example, being an ex-Mormon, myself), but I somehow come across a set of scriptures containing the King James Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. The institution of the LDS church is no longer around, but let's say I decide to live my life by what I have read in the Mormon doctrine. By practicing Mormon doctrine, I would technically be following that religion, thereby making me a Mormon, but I am merely enforcing the doctrine on myself whilst not trying to spread the religion, let alone institutionalize it.
 

Xzi

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Nobody believes you.
A fact stays a fact whether you choose to believe it or not. All of religion measures up to but a fraction of human culture and civilization in the grand scheme of things.

The part you are quoting is literally referring to "religious institutions". I'm convinced that you know you are wrong.
You've repeatedly insisted religion can exist without being tied to an institution, and yet you've not provided a single example of that ever happening. "Religious institution" can be considered a redundant phrase in the modern day.

For example, say I lived in an era where Mormonism is no longer a widely practiced religion (I use this example, being an ex-Mormon, myself), but I somehow come across a set of scriptures containing the King James Bible, The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. The institution of the LDS church is no longer around, but let's say I decide to live my life by what I have read in the Mormon doctrine. By practicing Mormon doctrine, I would technically be following that religion, thereby making me a Mormon, but I am merely enforcing the doctrine on myself whilst not trying to spread the religion, let alone institutionalize it.
In this example I would describe you as someone keeping the Mormon faith, not as being part of the greater Mormon religion.
 

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In this example I would describe you as someone keeping the Mormon faith, not as being part of the greater Mormon religion.

By what specific meaning of the word though? Technically, faith and religion can practically mean the same thing. I guess you can say that a doctrine is technically an institution, but apart from that, I could just make up my own religion, follow it and come up with a word to describe the faith. Much like how you can define someone's politics as being libertarian, the religion itself is, more commonly, the language used to define what one's faith is, but that's not to say it's the firm rule. You can argue all sorts of things depending on the definition you're using between the two terms.

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tabzer

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A fact stays a fact whether you choose to believe it or not. All of religion measures up to but a fraction of human culture and civilization in the grand scheme of things.

Yes, there have been several points in history where culture and religion were closely intertwined and sometimes even considered synonymous. In many ancient civilizations, religion played a central role in shaping the culture and daily lives of people. The beliefs, rituals, and practices associated with religion often permeated all aspects of society, including art, architecture, governance, social customs, and even language.

For example, in ancient Egypt, religion was an integral part of the culture, and the pharaohs were considered divine rulers. The construction of monumental structures such as pyramids and temples was closely tied to religious beliefs, and religious rituals and ceremonies were performed regularly to appease the gods and ensure the well-being of the society.

Similarly, in ancient Greece, religion was deeply ingrained in the culture, and the gods and goddesses played a significant role in various aspects of life. Festivals, ceremonies, and religious practices were an integral part of Greek society and influenced art, literature, philosophy, and even politics.

In many indigenous cultures around the world, religion and culture are often inseparable. The spiritual beliefs and practices of indigenous communities are closely intertwined with their cultural traditions, including language, music, dance, storytelling, and social structures.

However, it's important to note that while culture and religion have often been closely linked, they are not necessarily the same thing. Culture encompasses a broader range of aspects such as language, customs, traditions, arts, and social behaviors, whereas religion is a specific belief system that may be a part of a culture or influence it significantly. Additionally, cultures can evolve and change over time, and the relationship between culture and religion can vary across different societies and historical periods.

You've repeatedly insisted religion can exist without being tied to an institution, and yet you've not provided a single example of that ever happening. "Religious institution" can be considered a redundant phrase in the modern day.

There have been instances in history where religion existed without a formal institutional structure. Here are a few examples:

1. Indigenous and Tribal Religions: Many indigenous and tribal communities around the world have practiced their religious beliefs without a centralized institutional framework. These religions often involve animistic or shamanistic practices, where spiritual beliefs are deeply rooted in nature and community. These traditions are passed down through generations and are often guided by community elders, shamans, or spiritual leaders, rather than a formal religious institution.

2. Personal Spirituality: Some individuals may have personal religious or spiritual beliefs that are not tied to any organized institution. They may follow their own unique spiritual path, drawing from various religious traditions or developing their own beliefs and practices.

3. Non-Institutionalized Mystical Movements: Throughout history, there have been mystical or esoteric movements that emphasize personal spiritual experiences and direct communion with the divine, often bypassing formal religious institutions. Examples include certain branches of mysticism within Islam, such as Sufism, or various mystical traditions within Christianity, like Christian mysticism.

4. New Religious Movements: In modern times, there have been new religious movements or alternative spiritualities that exist outside mainstream religious institutions. These movements often emerge as a response to perceived shortcomings or conflicts within established religious traditions. Examples include New Age movements, neo-paganism, and various spiritual or philosophical movements that blend elements from multiple religious and philosophical sources.


It's important to note that even in the absence of a formal institution, these examples still involve individuals or communities practicing and expressing their religious or spiritual beliefs in various ways, often through rituals, ceremonies, prayers, and other forms of spiritual engagement.
 

Xzi

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For example, in ancient Egypt, religion was an integral part of the culture, and the pharaohs were considered divine rulers.
Bingo, you said the magic word. Everybody wants a break from worshiping their deity every now and then, no matter how devout they may be, and that's where culture veers off from religion. Ancient Egyptian religion is an interesting topic because they were a very imaginative and intelligent people for their era, but the narrow focus on that religion specifically tends to overshadow all the other parts of culture those traits benefited.

1. Indigenous and Tribal Religions: Many indigenous and tribal communities around the world have practiced their religious beliefs without a centralized institutional framework. These religions often involve animistic or shamanistic practices, where spiritual beliefs are deeply rooted in nature and community. These traditions are passed down through generations and are often guided by community elders, shamans, or spiritual leaders, rather than a formal religious institution.
Well ya got me on a technicality there, I should've at least narrowed the conversation down to the modern, urban/suburban concept of religion. Since I didn't, I concede that point.

2. Personal Spirituality: Some individuals may have personal religious or spiritual beliefs that are not tied to any organized institution. They may follow their own unique spiritual path, drawing from various religious traditions or developing their own beliefs and practices.

3. Non-Institutionalized Mystical Movements: Throughout history, there have been mystical or esoteric movements that emphasize personal spiritual experiences and direct communion with the divine, often bypassing formal religious institutions. Examples include certain branches of mysticism within Islam, such as Sufism, or various mystical traditions within Christianity, like Christian mysticism.

4. New Religious Movements: In modern times, there have been new religious movements or alternative spiritualities that exist outside mainstream religious institutions. These movements often emerge as a response to perceived shortcomings or conflicts within established religious traditions. Examples include New Age movements, neo-paganism, and various spiritual or philosophical movements that blend elements from multiple religious and philosophical sources.
In all of these examples I accept 'spirituality' as synonymous with 'faith,' but not religion. Religion is both rigid and brittle in structure, which is why it splintered so early and often throughout history. A whole lot of religious people would take offense to being compared on even terms with pagans and hippies.
 

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Religion REQUIRES an institution to operate through by definition, dummy.
This I will disagree with as religion does not require this. Religion can be self-defined and self-operated, and many practices (that I know of,) like Satanism, Luciferianism, Wicca, Hinduism, and Shintoism, have religious texts, practices, and places of worship but don't have institutions. Abrahamic religions are typically institutionalized, but they do not set the standards or norms for religious practices.
 

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